Space: delving into our dynamic universe
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CORDIScovery podcast- Episode #40 - Space: delving into our dynamic universe
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:03:09 - 00:00:19:10
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery.
00:00:19:12 - 00:00:43:23
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. Today we're delving into planetary dynamics. So if you feel space research is all above your head, you're in the right place. In this episode of CORDIScovery our three guests will explain how their work is helping to broaden our understanding of the origins of life. The swirling dust storms in the Martian atmosphere and how to venture too far distant asteroids.
00:00:44:00 - 00:01:04:16
Abigail Acton
We'll be talking about how life on earth might have begun and whether that could inform our research into the possibility of early life on Mars dust. There's a lot of it on and above Mars. What role did it play in the loss of Martian atmosphere in the distant past and right now? How is it impacting on our interpretation of remote sensor data?
00:01:04:18 - 00:01:27:17
Abigail Acton
And we'll be discussing missions beyond Mars to asteroids. How do space scientists seem to manage the impossible? Back in 2018, a Japanese mission landed two rovers on an asteroid 400 meters wide. Over 300 million kilometers from Earth. Now, if you've had trouble backing into a garage, ponder on that one. So what's the latest on designing and operating deep space missions to asteroids?
00:01:27:22 - 00:01:58:17
Abigail Acton
And how can we model, track and collect asteroid fragments? Is it time to start eyeing up asteroid mining startups? Here to talk about these fascinating subjects with me are Fuen Cañadas a geochemist who works as a research scientist at the Center for Astrobiology in Spain. Fuen is interested in reconstructing the environmental conditions of the Earth's early development, with a particular emphasis on the phosphorus carbon cycle as a way of improving our understanding of the co-evolution of the environment and life.
00:01:58:20 - 00:01:59:16
Abigail Acton
Welcome, Fuen.
00:01:59:17 - 00:02:04:08
Fuencisla Cañadas
Hi, everyone. Thanks for the invitation. I'm very glad to be here in this podcast today.
00:02:04:13 - 00:02:22:05
Abigail Acton
We're very happy to have you Fuen, thank you. Ann Carine Vandaele works at the Royal Belgian Institute for Space Aeronomy. She has been involved in the design and operation of instruments for the remote sensing of planetary atmospheres and is particularly interested in the role of clouds and dust in their composition. Welcome Ann.
00:02:22:07 - 00:02:26:05
Ann Carine Vandaele
Hi, everybody. I'm really delighted to be here today.
00:02:26:07 - 00:02:46:13
Abigail Acton
Well, very happy to have you. Thank you. Mirko Trisolini is an Astro dynamic specialist at Vyoma, a German company which works on understanding and effectively managing space traffic. He's particularly interested in the study of the dynamics of small particles and techniques designed to collect them from asteroids and other small bodies in the solar system. Hi, Mirko.
00:02:46:18 - 00:02:51:09
Mirko Trisolini
Hello, everyone. Thank you, Abigail, and thank everybody for having me here.
00:02:51:11 - 00:03:07:13
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Let's start. I'm going to turn to Fuen firs. The Mars Phosphorus and LifE Project asks two fundamental questions How did life on Earth begin? And did Mars ever host life? So no pressure then Fuen. Can you tell us how and where we think life originated on Earth?
00:03:07:17 - 00:03:36:03
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, it's a very good question to start, because the answer is no. We don't know when and how life originated on the Earth. And so we don't know exactly how. There are a few ideas. And so traditionally, places like, for example, like thermal vents in the ocean or places where they're very acidic have been usually proposed as a very good spot for life to start, because those environments are very rich in nutrients.
00:03:36:05 - 00:04:05:19
Fuencisla Cañadas
But those environments are a problem with phosphorus, and phosphorus is some key element for life. And we cant imagine life without phosphorus. And in those environments, what happens is that phosphorus is generally trapped in minerals, principally a mineral called apatite and then the concentration in the water is very, very low. And then it makes the situation very, very limited for life to emerge.
00:04:05:21 - 00:04:37:15
Fuencisla Cañadas
So this is what in astrobiology we know as the phosphate problem. And however there is another type of environment that is very popular in the last years that is carbonate rich lakes that might solve these issue because apatite this mineral that I said before it contains both calcium and phosphorus. But in this type of lakes calcium tends to bond with carbonates instead of forming apatite.
00:04:37:15 - 00:05:04:03
Fuencisla Cañadas
So it means that calcium is locked up in the minerals and then it stops apatite from forming. So as a result, a phosphorus, that's doesn't get to trap an appetite and it means that it's available in the water in higher concentrations for life. So this may be the environment, these carbonate rich lakes potential place for life and for life where life could have started.
00:05:04:05 - 00:05:16:02
Fuencisla Cañadas
And so what I find very, very interesting is here on Earth, many carbonate lakes were formed because of photosynthesis. They are a result of this process, photosynthesis.
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:25:09
Abigail Acton
That's interesting points. Thank you very much. So what exactly is the relationship between the carbonate lakes and photosynthesis? What's the role of photosynthesis in this?
00:05:25:11 - 00:05:52:23
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, on Earth, many carbonate lakes have been formed because of these photosynthesis process, and in this case, microbes use carbon dioxide as a source of energy and take it from the water. And then it changed their water chemistry towards more alkaline conditions. And then with higher PH in the water allows the precipitation. These conditions allow the precipitation of carbonate minerals on earth.
00:05:53:00 - 00:06:01:03
Abigail Acton
Okay, fantastic. Thank you. That super well explained. Very much appreciated. So what did MaPLE do to explore this theory? What was the work that your project did here?
00:06:01:05 - 00:06:27:19
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, MaPLE was a very, very exciting project that gave me the opportunity to travel to Thunder Bay, Canada and work in one of the oldest regions on Earth. I investigated rock samples that were from, as I said, 3 billion years ago. And so these samples are significant not only because of their age, but also and those are special because they come from the oldest known carbonate platform on earth.
00:06:27:21 - 00:06:50:19
Fuencisla Cañadas
This platform contains stromatolites that are sedimentary structures that have been formed by cyanobacteria. What indicates that they existed there at some point and these samples were collected from a drill core which helps preserve the original geological and chemical properties of that rock compared to outcrops.
00:06:50:19 - 00:06:59:01
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. So when you say a drill core, what are the challenges actually of using the drill core to extract these samples? That must have been really quite complex.
00:06:59:03 - 00:07:24:08
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, actually, the drill core was donated by American Mining Company. It's very usual in science to work with drill cores have been trained before. So we are really, really happy because we had this opportunity. But when working with that old samples, we think that's ancient material. We have two major challenges: first potential contamination of the samples.
00:07:24:10 - 00:07:53:00
Fuencisla Cañadas
And to avoid these, we carefully prepare the samples in the lab. We wash them with solvents. We remove their parts and then cross them very, very carefully, clean in the mortar after each use to prevent cross-contamination. But also a second important challenge is genetic modifications. And this refers to chemical or physical changes that can happen on the rock over time.
00:07:53:02 - 00:08:15:06
Fuencisla Cañadas
And these changes can alter the original composition of the rock. And this is very important because when we are talking about 3 billion year old rocks, we need to know if the results we are getting from our analysis are representing original conditions when these rocks were deposited or they are representing something much, much more in the present for example.
00:08:15:09 - 00:08:24:15
Abigail Acton
And how do you go about differentiating that? How can you be sure that you are looking at something that is contemporaneous with the period that you're studying?
00:08:24:16 - 00:08:57:11
Fuencisla Cañadas
In geochemistry, we work with different geochemical proxies and then we can reconstruct with isotopes or with further analysis by page or chemical analysis we can construct how were there, for example, the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere in the water column, the levels of iron, the levels, and then you compare the results with these three analyzes and then you can see, because throughout the geological ages, we can clearly see different geochemical fingerprints that belong to the different chemical periods.
00:08:57:13 - 00:09:03:23
Fuencisla Cañadas
So it is quite important. It is critical to understand what we are reading.
00:09:03:23 - 00:09:21:19
Abigail Acton
No, absolutely. Because you could go completely on the wrong track. So when you're looking at these sediments, you can see through your various forms of analysis. As you say, fingerprints, I like that word, fingerprints that show specific characteristics of specific epochs. And so, you know what you're looking at exactly. Fantastic. Super. And what did you find out?
00:09:22:08 - 00:09:46:22
Fuencisla Cañadas
When I started working on this project, one interesting question that I wonder myself is how these cyanobacteria that finally ultimately form the stromatolites were able to emerge and thrive in that environment 3 billion years ago where the water was anoxic means with no oxygen at all. And also the atmosphere was reached in CO2, in carbon dioxide.
00:09:46:24 - 00:10:18:14
Fuencisla Cañadas
So how cyanobacteria that are photosynthetic organisms were able to work. So through this project through the MaPLE Project we reconstructed the environmental conditions from this area 3 billion years ago and we identify periods of oxygen rich waters within this anoxic environment. So we believe that this oxygen was produced by cyanobacteria that thrived in that area thanks to a higher phosphorus content in the water that was present.
00:10:18:19 - 00:10:39:05
Abigail Acton
And then we come full circle back to the idea of the importance of phosphorus and the fact that the phosphorus was present permitting that. That's fantastic. And tell me, how does this tie into your ideas with regards to the possibility of very, very, very long, distant life on Mars? I know that you are very interested in certain calcium lakes that are being looked at by the Mars rover.
00:10:39:05 - 00:10:40:17
Abigail Acton
Can you tell us a bit more about that?
00:10:40:18 - 00:11:13:00
Fuencisla Cañadas
Yeah, sure. Well, the principal hypothesis is that this photosynthetic activity and that's area in Canada favored the precipitation of carbonates and then the formation of this platform where these stromatolites are preserved to date. So this is where the story becomes even more intriguing because we can connected it with Mars. So when life emerged on earth, conditions were very similar on Mars with liquid water and oxy waters and also a carbon dioxide rich atmosphere.
00:11:13:02 - 00:11:39:00
Fuencisla Cañadas
And however on earth there were some, let's say, a restricted areas where conditions favored the appearance of life. But what happens to Mars? Well, what about Mars? So carbonates there on Mars are very, very rare. And the reason for this is not very well understood yet. So, for example, acidic conditions on Mars could have inhibited a carbonate to precipitate, but also on earth.
00:11:39:00 - 00:11:57:15
Fuencisla Cañadas
Conditions were acidic and life emerged in those isolated areas. So what about if then I wonder with my team. And what about these if the formation of those carbonates on Mars was influenced by life like many places here on Earth.
00:11:57:17 - 00:11:59:10
Abigail Acton
So you are sort of turning it around there.
00:11:59:10 - 00:12:00:03
Fuencisla Cañadas
Yes, I think.
00:12:00:03 - 00:12:06:17
Abigail Acton
They are fascinating. So it's not that the carbonate environments gave rise to life because they were favorable, but maybe they were caused by life.
00:12:06:21 - 00:12:24:14
Fuencisla Cañadas
Exactly. This is just an idea we that we are developing and is very difficult to answer. And to me, I actually really believe that this interesting question maybe answer with the Mars sample return mission which is the most ambitious mission that NASA ever had.
00:12:24:14 - 00:12:29:19
Abigail Acton
So that's NASA's mission to bring back as it says, samples from Mars. It's fantastic.
00:12:29:19 - 00:12:45:04
Fuencisla Cañadas
And currently the mission, the Perseverance rover that is now on Mars is collecting rocks, rock samples from Jezero Crater. And this crater is special because it's one of the few spots on Mars where carbonates have been identified.
00:12:45:06 - 00:13:00:16
Abigail Acton
Well, a gut sounds fascinating. So you don't know what's around the corner. And if you get your chance to have a look at some of the samples that come back, if that works out for you, because I know that you are very keen, I know not alone to get your hands on some of the samples. You might be proved right.
00:13:00:16 - 00:13:11:07
Abigail Acton
When wouldn't that be fantastic? That would be amazing. Well, there you go. It's brilliant. Thank you so much. And you really brought that to life for us. I'm very appreciative. Does anyone have any questions for Fuen? Yes, Mirko.
00:13:11:09 - 00:13:33:08
Mirko Trisolini
Yes, Thank you. I was wondering that what you were mentioning about this connection between Earth and Mars, if, for example, when collecting the samples on Mars, they have been exposed to a lot of radiation, for example. So the radiation environment would be much harsher, would it have some consequences? And when you analyze and you compare these samples with Earth.
00:13:33:10 - 00:14:08:18
Fuencisla Cañadas
Of course the comparison between the Mars and the Earth has some limitations. And one of them, one very important is the one that you mentioned. Is the surface of Mars has been exposed for millions of years to high doses of radiation. But this is why here on Earth, one part of our analysis is to compare samples from for example, this area in Canada, we use them as an analog and then we use them and we run, perform different analysis and then we perform the same analysis.
00:14:08:18 - 00:14:20:05
Fuencisla Cañadas
Once those samples have been radiated in laboratories, and then we can get different signatures and then we can compare together a more reliable signature of the data that is coming from Mars.
00:14:20:07 - 00:14:38:15
Abigail Acton
So to just basically to get to get closer to what is actually probably going to be coming back. Yes. Thank you very much. Excellent question, Mirko, thank you so much. Thank you. I'm going to turn to Ann now. Ann the ROADMAP project wanted to establish the impact of dust on the Martian atmosphere. Why is it so necessary to gain a better understanding of the role of dust and clouds over Mars?
00:14:38:15 - 00:15:16:08
Ann Carine Vandaele
Thank you, Abigail. It's quite important to understand the role of dust and clouds on Mars. But in fact, on any planet it's as important because dust and clouds are impacting the atmosphere in many aspects. So for example, they are constraining the water cycle. They are impacting relative processes occurring in the atmosphere. The way the solar radiation, for example, interacts with the atmosphere and they even impacts the circulation.
00:15:16:08 - 00:15:49:19
Ann Carine Vandaele
So the way air masses are moving around. We have shown recently that it has impact on the long term evolution of the atmosphere of the planet because more dust on Mars was linked to a larger escape of hydrogen, which is an element of the atmosphere. And so we could show the link between dust and losing an atmosphere.
00:15:50:00 - 00:16:00:14
Abigail Acton
Right. Fascinating. And I believe, of course, it also has an impact on how we observe planets, how we interpret data from our remote observations. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
00:16:00:18 - 00:16:40:06
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes, indeed. And that's actually another aspect that was studied into the during the ROADMAP project was the impact of dust and clouds on the investigation and the analysis of the data recorded by sounding instruments. So usually the atmospheres are sounded using spectroscopy and so you will use a fingerprint as we mentioned earlier, that is really giving information on the presence of the gas and how much there is of this gas.
00:16:40:08 - 00:17:04:00
Ann Carine Vandaele
But of course, dust and clouds also have fingerprints, which are overlapping the features shown by atmosphere gases. So in order to get to the abundances after gases, you must first have a very good idea how much dust and clouds there are.
00:17:04:02 - 00:17:21:13
Abigail Acton
Yeah, no, I get that. Totally. So in order to be able to look for what you actually want to be looking at, you need to be able to filter out the noise, the interference that's coming from these extra masses that are circulating around. And that's fascinating. It's obvious when you say it, but it's one of those things that doesn't immediately come to mind.
00:17:21:15 - 00:17:36:11
Abigail Acton
And I suppose this might actually even have implications for the safety of future missions, because if you are trying to determine atmospheric properties that connects directly with programing of various space machinery and vehicles. No. Is that true?
00:17:36:11 - 00:18:09:17
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes. And this is, in fact, very important for the exploration of Mars, because dust, in fact, is present on the planet everywhere, every time. And on top of that, sometimes dust domes can evolve. We still don't know why and how. And they can even evolve itself into global dust storms so completely surrounding the planet. And you do not want to land something on the planet when there is such storms.
00:18:09:19 - 00:18:27:03
Ann Carine Vandaele
So we need to get more information on the storms themselves from the dust to have an idea how the storms can be created and when it is better to try to get there.
00:18:27:09 - 00:18:46:18
Abigail Acton
Yeah, so the nature of the origin of the storm and whether there's a kind of predictability to them that that can be factored in. Yeah, no, I get that totally. We've been thinking a little bit with Fuen just now about the notion of analogs. I find this fascinating. I mean, the areas that you chaps are researching also very, very, very remote and so very, very inaccessible.
00:18:46:20 - 00:19:09:08
Abigail Acton
And obviously everybody here is very anxious to get their hands on real life samples. This is totally understandable. But until the samples returned from Mars, you are having to make do with analogs. Can you explain a little bit more about analogs? What exactly are analogs and how are they used in a laboratory for research such as yours, for example?
00:19:09:10 - 00:19:41:11
Ann Carine Vandaele
That's a very good question. In fact, as you said, we still do not have samples from the Martian surface. The same for Venus, for example. That will be even more tricky to have some. So what we do in the laboratory on Earth is to use what we call analogs. That means samples which are made of what we find on Earth and what we think would be the most representative of what is on Mars.
00:19:41:13 - 00:20:03:04
Ann Carine Vandaele
And so it's based on our preconception of what is there of course, we now have a good idea of what is made up of to the surface of Mars, but we do not know the details and so on. Analogs are our best definition of what we think it is.
00:20:03:06 - 00:20:16:12
Abigail Acton
Fascinating and I think also you can create conditional analogs where with pressure chambers and so on, you can actually try and create environmental factors that are similar. For example, Fuen was talking about exposing her rocks to radiation to see what happens.
00:20:16:16 - 00:20:43:03
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes. And so that's something that we did in ROADMAP. We used analogs, but in environments which are similar to what is expected on Mars. And for example, one of the experiments was to use a wind tunnel in which the dust would be placed on a sand bed and then the wind would blow in the tunnel.
00:20:43:05 - 00:21:00:21
Ann Carine Vandaele
And the tunnel is in conditions which are close to the pressure which is found on Mars. So very low pressure. So in this wind tunnel, we could reproduce some of the conditions which are expected to happen on Mars.
00:21:01:00 - 00:21:02:10
Abigail Acton
And how fast was the wind going?
00:21:02:10 - 00:21:04:08
Ann Carine Vandaele
Well, I don't remember.
00:21:04:10 - 00:21:12:12
Abigail Acton
I was expecting a massive great big number, you know, two kilometers a second. I bet it was going very, very, very fast there. And what did you find?
00:21:12:18 - 00:21:44:07
Ann Carine Vandaele
So we find very interesting results. So, for example, some are related to the depth of dust which can be lifted. So you might think that the quantity of dust which is lifted is not directly impacted on the depth of the dust layer and that's one of the thing that we found that in fact, no, it is impacted. So if the dust layer is very thin, this dust is not moved away by the wind.
00:21:44:13 - 00:21:47:16
Ann Carine Vandaele
So that's one of the findings.
00:21:47:21 - 00:22:02:15
Abigail Acton
But that's very interesting, Okay. So once it's thick, then the top layer comes off more easily. Interesting. Okay. Thank you very much Ann, that's fantastic. I really appreciate that description. It was very clear. Does anyone have any comments or observations to make to Ann? Yes. Fuen. What would you like to ask?
00:22:02:15 - 00:22:19:15
Fuencisla Cañadas
Thanks Ann. Just a curiosity, so when you perform experiments with dust, how do you characterize the dust? I guess is a similar composition of the real dust on Mars? I think, but how do you characterize it?
00:22:19:17 - 00:22:49:02
Ann Carine Vandaele
So first, the analogs that we used are in fact, commonly found on Earth in the sense that you can buy Martian analogs. And we started from those and indeed, because one of the things we wanted to investigate is the impact of the size of the dust particles. We first made sure that our samples where characterize in terms of size and size distribution.
00:22:49:04 - 00:23:16:18
Ann Carine Vandaele
So there are a lot of different measurement that you can do to check the size distribution of your sample. You can have direct measurement of the sizes, but you can also have images taken of the samples to see the shapes of the grains to a lot of, I would say analytical inspection of the samples was done. So we knew what our samples where we are made of.
00:23:16:20 - 00:23:24:21
Abigail Acton
And you also have data coming back from the rover with the probe. You've got chemical profiles and other things coming through physical, physical data coming through, no?
00:23:24:21 - 00:23:42:14
Ann Carine Vandaele
We have some images from the rovers and they're sampling the surface. So we have some ideas and that's how you built your analog. So the one that you can buy they are built on measurements and observations.
00:23:42:18 - 00:24:04:09
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Thank you very much for that clarification. Super good point, Fuen, thank you. Mirko, I'm going to turn to you. Your project was called CRADLE or in full: Collecting Asteroid-Orbiting Samples: enabling a safer, sustainable, and autonomous exploration of asteroids. Now, we've been talking about dust, so I'm sure we're going to come on to the notion of dust from asteroids and that sort of thing as well in the collection of that.
00:24:04:15 - 00:24:09:24
Abigail Acton
But before we do, why this area of research, Mirko, what got you involved in this in the first place?
00:24:10:03 - 00:24:33:07
Mirko Trisolini
Thank you for the question Abigail. I started my study, I have to say in space engineering and in my dream, my masters, I always wanted to contribute in some ways to space exploration missions, to interplanetary missions. But in the end, my career, my research career had brought me to a different direction.
00:24:33:07 - 00:24:34:04
Mirko Trisolini
At a certain point.
00:24:34:07 - 00:24:35:24
Abigail Acton
It often happens.
00:24:36:01 - 00:25:08:16
Mirko Trisolini
Exactly it’s really predictable at the end of the day, not as much as you want usually. But at the end of the day I had this opportunity with this project to, let's say, take everything that I had learned during these years, especially related to dynamics and dynamics of small particles and debris in particular in my case, and I tried to apply it to a different to a different field and in particular to space exploration missions and missions to asteroids and comets and this smaller bodies in the solar systems.
00:25:08:18 - 00:25:14:15
Mirko Trisolini
And so I tried to let's say transition a bit and apply what I had learned before into a different era.
00:25:14:17 - 00:25:34:16
Abigail Acton
But it's still it's still relevant. I mean, the ability to understand how to interact with small, small bodies moving a great speed is is also vital to the missions as well, I would have thought. But anyway, let's go back to CRADLE. What did it set out to do? Your project and I know you wanted to further our understanding of these environments, but specifically, what were you looking at?
00:25:34:18 - 00:26:02:21
Mirko Trisolini
Basically, when we started with the project, we thought, let's say, let's see if we can find a way to sample, let's say, material from these remote small bodies like asteroids and comets in a different way, which has not been done so far. I could ask, why would you want to do that before mission to have done this, which had just a few, did it, for example, by landing on a body or touchdown, actually most often touched down.
00:26:02:23 - 00:26:23:12
Mirko Trisolini
But then maybe some ways in some occasions where this is not possible. And for example, this can happen if the environment of the asteroid is a bit too challenging. For example, we might have a too rough terrain or we may have a dynamical environment of the asteroid, which is very challenging.
00:26:23:14 - 00:26:24:15
Abigail Acton
Like a lot of dust, for example.
00:26:24:17 - 00:26:46:17
Mirko Trisolini
There could be dust, but it could also be, maybe dust is not so challenging in this case actually, but it is more the way the asteroid moves. So because you don't know it before, it's very difficult to understand how actually the asteroid looks like from the earth and how it moves. And there are very small bodies out there that actually rotate very, very, very fast.
00:26:46:19 - 00:26:58:10
Mirko Trisolini
And it would be difficult for it for a satellite actually to touch on the surface of this body. And so we wanted to try to find different ways and different approaches to enable sampling from these small bodies.
00:26:58:12 - 00:27:07:23
Abigail Acton
Okay. And can I just ask you why? I mean, why don't we just leave them in piece spinning around incredibly quickly in the outer regions of the vast space? Why do we want to know?
00:27:08:00 - 00:27:35:21
Mirko Trisolini
Absolutely. We could do that, but sometimes we are interested in that. And for example, I would say that we are especially interested in this small fast rotating bodies because these are usually this type of asteroids are actually small asteroids below 100 below even 50 meters. And these are basically the class of our asteroids the most common in the solar system, but are also the ones that are more probable to enter the Earth's atmosphere, for example.
00:27:35:23 - 00:28:04:15
Mirko Trisolini
And so we want to know how they are made and what is their composition, because it could be useful also for us in understanding what they can do when they enter the Earth's atmosphere. And if you think about it, there is maybe ten years ago in 2013, I think there was an example of this in Russia with the Chelyabinsk event, which this was a very small asteroid and caused a lot of damage by just entering the earth and doing the shockwave basically that caused a lot of damage and some injured people.
00:28:04:15 - 00:28:11:10
Abigail Acton
And I guess the better you understand the nature, the asteroid, the easier it is or not easier, but the more realistic it becomes to try and deflect them. Is that true also?
00:28:11:10 - 00:28:11:22
Mirko Trisolini
Indeed.
00:28:11:24 - 00:28:17:09
Abigail Acton
Okay. Excellent. And so can you tell me a little bit about what you actually did in the project then?
00:28:17:11 - 00:28:40:22
Mirko Trisolini
Yeah, absolutely. So what we did in the project. So first, as I mentioned before, we thought, so how can we find a different way to, to sample this without having to touch this body? And so what we, we thought together also with the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, which I was collaborating with during the project, why don't we try to shoot it with a projectile.
00:28:41:18 - 00:28:51:21
Mirko Trisolini
And this is not something that we come up that it's just one day because, for example, JAXA, the Japan agency, already did it with the Hayabusa2 mission.
00:28:51:22 - 00:28:55:21
Abigail Acton
So is that the mission that I touched on right at the beginning?
00:28:55:23 - 00:29:18:02
Mirko Trisolini
It was perfectly in topic. And actually they did it. So they shoot an asteroid with a projectile to create a crater and study the crater. And so what we thought together and say, why don't we just take it a bit further and let's see if we can do and try to use this methodology to sample the particles that have been generated after this impact.
00:29:18:02 - 00:29:41:18
Mirko Trisolini
And so what we tried to do was to model it and study it as much as we could with methodologies that are available to us at the moment. So we focused on the different aspects of it that we needed to put together to see if this is feasible. And so what we did, we modeled how the projectile interacts with the soil of the asteroid and so how it creates the particle.
00:29:41:18 - 00:30:10:23
Mirko Trisolini
And after these particles are created, how they move around the asteroid. So depending on the shape of the asteroid or the dynamic, how close these asteroids are, for example, to the sun, this will impact how they move. And then what we said we wanted to do was also to say, let's see how we can design a trajectory of the spacecraft around this body with which we can try to collect these particles while they're there and try to take it as many as possible, actually, to try to maximize our return for the mission.
00:30:11:03 - 00:30:30:24
Abigail Acton
So I guess you were sort of also modeling what the impact of this particular projectile would be on the asteroid so that whatever was circling the asteroid to collect the result wouldn't then also get involved in some sort of collision or because I guess if they're very small asteroids and you're firing a projectile at them, they're going to move away.
00:30:31:00 - 00:30:39:21
Mirko Trisolini
You would have to be a very, very large projectile for them to move away, the trajectory is very small, maybe ten centimeters in diameter.
00:30:39:23 - 00:30:42:22
Abigail Acton
So you're not actually playing cosmic billiards.
00:30:42:24 - 00:31:10:23
Mirko Trisolini
But this has been another mission, actually, which recently with NASA and ESA combined that they're still carrying it out. But the trajectory will be smaller about ten, ten, 15 centimeters, which is the one, for example, of hayabusa2. Depending on the material of the asteroids it's sufficient to create a very large crater. For example, Hayabusa2 created a 15 meters, one five over 15 meters diameter crater.
00:31:10:23 - 00:31:26:05
Abigail Acton
With a tiny little projectile. So it's fascinating. really wonderful. Thank you very much. And do you have some findings to share? Did you do you have any takeaways that were particularly interesting at because the project's terminated now? So what was the key thing that you want to take away with this or tell us about?
00:31:26:07 - 00:31:54:13
Mirko Trisolini
I think we found quite a few things in the end because we studied which kind of asteroids would be more suitable for such a type of collection. And usually these are asteroids which are on the smaller side, let's say less than a kilometer. And not too dense, for example. And usually it would be best to do it with asteroids that are not too rocky, For example, it's a bit more of a sandy material, which is typically what we have seen in past missions, for example.
00:31:54:15 - 00:32:29:21
Mirko Trisolini
But it is not certain. And also several takeaways I think from the project were the methodology that we used. And I hope this can be used in, say, even further missions and in analyzing and giving the possibilities for exploring these bodies further. And we actually already did some preliminary analysis for the extended mission of Hayabusa2, which will go to one of these very small asteroids that is small, fast rotating asteroids, and will hopefully reach it in 2031, if I'm not mistaken.
00:32:29:23 - 00:32:34:05
Mirko Trisolini
And it would see hopefully some of the results we obtained will be used for this mission.
00:32:34:05 - 00:32:50:06
Abigail Acton
Well, it would be fantastic. That's obviously brilliant. I think one of the things that I'm hearing from all of you is how your work is feeding into the next mission and the next mission. So it's a continual building on and building up from previous research. It's fascinating. It must feel wonderful to be part of such a big a whole.
00:32:50:12 - 00:32:54:12
Abigail Acton
That's great. Does anyone have any questions for Mirko please? Yes Ann.
00:32:54:14 - 00:33:03:14
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes. I was wondering if your methods were only applicable to airless bodies.
00:33:03:22 - 00:33:32:15
Mirko Trisolini
Thank you for the question. I think that what we mainly studied, it's mainly applicable to bodies without an atmosphere. They have to be smaller asteroid size. They can be a few hundred meters, but they can be some kilometers. But having an atmosphere would be way more challenging because the motion of the dust would be way different, really, really different.
00:33:32:15 - 00:33:50:01
Mirko Trisolini
Because if we don't have an atmosphere, it's a bit easier to predict how they will move the dynamics are much simpler than if you have, for example, winds or some other aspects that could change their trajectory wildly, like in a body with an atmosphere.
00:33:50:03 - 00:34:04:12
Abigail Acton
Like Martian dust. Listen, thank you so very much for your time. That was just wonderful. I really, really enjoyed that. It's sort of New Horizons opening up there. Wonderful. Thanks a lot for joining me today on CORDIScovery.
00:34:04:17 - 00:34:07:24
Mirko Trisolini
Thank you very much. And thanks for having me in the interview.
00:34:08:01 - 00:34:08:23
Abigail Acton
Good stuff Mirko.
00:34:09:00 - 00:34:09:22
Fuencisla Cañadas
Thank you, Abigail.
00:34:10:02 - 00:34:11:22
Ann Carine Vandaele
Thank you. Bye bye.
00:34:11:22 - 00:34:12:14
Mirko Trisolini
Bye bye bye.
00:34:14:23 - 00:34:34:01
Abigail Acton
We had fun listening to this episode of CORDIScovery. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and check out the podcast home page on the Cordis dot Europa dot EU website. Subscribe to make sure that the hottest research in EU funded science isn't passing you by. And if you end up chatting to someone about podcasts you're enjoying, why not
00:34:34:01 - 00:34:54:13
Abigail Acton
Name drop CORDIScovery. We talked about lights being used to direct fish away from nets, development and personalized treatment to target cancer. And how surprised crows are by certain magical tricks. In our previous episodes, they'll be something there to tweak your curiosity. Perhaps you want to know what other EU funded projects are doing to improve our understanding of the mechanics of space.
00:34:54:14 - 00:35:16:06
Abigail Acton
The CORDIS website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by Horizon 2020 and Horizon Europe that are working in these areas. The website has articles and interviews that explore the results of research being conducted in a very broad range of domains and subjects from megafauna to megabits. There's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in the project or would like to apply for funding.
00:35:16:11 - 00:35:30:03
Abigail Acton
Take a look at what others are doing in your domain, so come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line. Editorial at Cordis Dot Europa Dot EU. Until next time.
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:03:09 - 00:00:19:10
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery.
00:00:19:12 - 00:00:43:23
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. Today we're delving into planetary dynamics. So if you feel space research is all above your head, you're in the right place. In this episode of CORDIScovery our three guests will explain how their work is helping to broaden our understanding of the origins of life. The swirling dust storms in the Martian atmosphere and how to venture too far distant asteroids.
00:00:44:00 - 00:01:04:16
Abigail Acton
We'll be talking about how life on earth might have begun and whether that could inform our research into the possibility of early life on Mars dust. There's a lot of it on and above Mars. What role did it play in the loss of Martian atmosphere in the distant past and right now? How is it impacting on our interpretation of remote sensor data?
00:01:04:18 - 00:01:27:17
Abigail Acton
And we'll be discussing missions beyond Mars to asteroids. How do space scientists seem to manage the impossible? Back in 2018, a Japanese mission landed two rovers on an asteroid 400 meters wide. Over 300 million kilometers from Earth. Now, if you've had trouble backing into a garage, ponder on that one. So what's the latest on designing and operating deep space missions to asteroids?
00:01:27:22 - 00:01:58:17
Abigail Acton
And how can we model, track and collect asteroid fragments? Is it time to start eyeing up asteroid mining startups? Here to talk about these fascinating subjects with me are Fuen Cañadas a geochemist who works as a research scientist at the Center for Astrobiology in Spain. Fuen is interested in reconstructing the environmental conditions of the Earth's early development, with a particular emphasis on the phosphorus carbon cycle as a way of improving our understanding of the co-evolution of the environment and life.
00:01:58:20 - 00:01:59:16
Abigail Acton
Welcome, Fuen.
00:01:59:17 - 00:02:04:08
Fuencisla Cañadas
Hi, everyone. Thanks for the invitation. I'm very glad to be here in this podcast today.
00:02:04:13 - 00:02:22:05
Abigail Acton
We're very happy to have you Fuen, thank you. Ann Carine Vandaele works at the Royal Belgian Institute for Space Aeronomy. She has been involved in the design and operation of instruments for the remote sensing of planetary atmospheres and is particularly interested in the role of clouds and dust in their composition. Welcome Ann.
00:02:22:07 - 00:02:26:05
Ann Carine Vandaele
Hi, everybody. I'm really delighted to be here today.
00:02:26:07 - 00:02:46:13
Abigail Acton
Well, very happy to have you. Thank you. Mirko Trisolini is an Astro dynamic specialist at Vyoma, a German company which works on understanding and effectively managing space traffic. He's particularly interested in the study of the dynamics of small particles and techniques designed to collect them from asteroids and other small bodies in the solar system. Hi, Mirko.
00:02:46:18 - 00:02:51:09
Mirko Trisolini
Hello, everyone. Thank you, Abigail, and thank everybody for having me here.
00:02:51:11 - 00:03:07:13
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Let's start. I'm going to turn to Fuen firs. The Mars Phosphorus and LifE Project asks two fundamental questions How did life on Earth begin? And did Mars ever host life? So no pressure then Fuen. Can you tell us how and where we think life originated on Earth?
00:03:07:17 - 00:03:36:03
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, it's a very good question to start, because the answer is no. We don't know when and how life originated on the Earth. And so we don't know exactly how. There are a few ideas. And so traditionally, places like, for example, like thermal vents in the ocean or places where they're very acidic have been usually proposed as a very good spot for life to start, because those environments are very rich in nutrients.
00:03:36:05 - 00:04:05:19
Fuencisla Cañadas
But those environments are a problem with phosphorus, and phosphorus is some key element for life. And we cant imagine life without phosphorus. And in those environments, what happens is that phosphorus is generally trapped in minerals, principally a mineral called apatite and then the concentration in the water is very, very low. And then it makes the situation very, very limited for life to emerge.
00:04:05:21 - 00:04:37:15
Fuencisla Cañadas
So this is what in astrobiology we know as the phosphate problem. And however there is another type of environment that is very popular in the last years that is carbonate rich lakes that might solve these issue because apatite this mineral that I said before it contains both calcium and phosphorus. But in this type of lakes calcium tends to bond with carbonates instead of forming apatite.
00:04:37:15 - 00:05:04:03
Fuencisla Cañadas
So it means that calcium is locked up in the minerals and then it stops apatite from forming. So as a result, a phosphorus, that's doesn't get to trap an appetite and it means that it's available in the water in higher concentrations for life. So this may be the environment, these carbonate rich lakes potential place for life and for life where life could have started.
00:05:04:05 - 00:05:16:02
Fuencisla Cañadas
And so what I find very, very interesting is here on Earth, many carbonate lakes were formed because of photosynthesis. They are a result of this process, photosynthesis.
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:25:09
Abigail Acton
That's interesting points. Thank you very much. So what exactly is the relationship between the carbonate lakes and photosynthesis? What's the role of photosynthesis in this?
00:05:25:11 - 00:05:52:23
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, on Earth, many carbonate lakes have been formed because of these photosynthesis process, and in this case, microbes use carbon dioxide as a source of energy and take it from the water. And then it changed their water chemistry towards more alkaline conditions. And then with higher PH in the water allows the precipitation. These conditions allow the precipitation of carbonate minerals on earth.
00:05:53:00 - 00:06:01:03
Abigail Acton
Okay, fantastic. Thank you. That super well explained. Very much appreciated. So what did MaPLE do to explore this theory? What was the work that your project did here?
00:06:01:05 - 00:06:27:19
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, MaPLE was a very, very exciting project that gave me the opportunity to travel to Thunder Bay, Canada and work in one of the oldest regions on Earth. I investigated rock samples that were from, as I said, 3 billion years ago. And so these samples are significant not only because of their age, but also and those are special because they come from the oldest known carbonate platform on earth.
00:06:27:21 - 00:06:50:19
Fuencisla Cañadas
This platform contains stromatolites that are sedimentary structures that have been formed by cyanobacteria. What indicates that they existed there at some point and these samples were collected from a drill core which helps preserve the original geological and chemical properties of that rock compared to outcrops.
00:06:50:19 - 00:06:59:01
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. So when you say a drill core, what are the challenges actually of using the drill core to extract these samples? That must have been really quite complex.
00:06:59:03 - 00:07:24:08
Fuencisla Cañadas
Well, actually, the drill core was donated by American Mining Company. It's very usual in science to work with drill cores have been trained before. So we are really, really happy because we had this opportunity. But when working with that old samples, we think that's ancient material. We have two major challenges: first potential contamination of the samples.
00:07:24:10 - 00:07:53:00
Fuencisla Cañadas
And to avoid these, we carefully prepare the samples in the lab. We wash them with solvents. We remove their parts and then cross them very, very carefully, clean in the mortar after each use to prevent cross-contamination. But also a second important challenge is genetic modifications. And this refers to chemical or physical changes that can happen on the rock over time.
00:07:53:02 - 00:08:15:06
Fuencisla Cañadas
And these changes can alter the original composition of the rock. And this is very important because when we are talking about 3 billion year old rocks, we need to know if the results we are getting from our analysis are representing original conditions when these rocks were deposited or they are representing something much, much more in the present for example.
00:08:15:09 - 00:08:24:15
Abigail Acton
And how do you go about differentiating that? How can you be sure that you are looking at something that is contemporaneous with the period that you're studying?
00:08:24:16 - 00:08:57:11
Fuencisla Cañadas
In geochemistry, we work with different geochemical proxies and then we can reconstruct with isotopes or with further analysis by page or chemical analysis we can construct how were there, for example, the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere in the water column, the levels of iron, the levels, and then you compare the results with these three analyzes and then you can see, because throughout the geological ages, we can clearly see different geochemical fingerprints that belong to the different chemical periods.
00:08:57:13 - 00:09:03:23
Fuencisla Cañadas
So it is quite important. It is critical to understand what we are reading.
00:09:03:23 - 00:09:21:19
Abigail Acton
No, absolutely. Because you could go completely on the wrong track. So when you're looking at these sediments, you can see through your various forms of analysis. As you say, fingerprints, I like that word, fingerprints that show specific characteristics of specific epochs. And so, you know what you're looking at exactly. Fantastic. Super. And what did you find out?
00:09:22:08 - 00:09:46:22
Fuencisla Cañadas
When I started working on this project, one interesting question that I wonder myself is how these cyanobacteria that finally ultimately form the stromatolites were able to emerge and thrive in that environment 3 billion years ago where the water was anoxic means with no oxygen at all. And also the atmosphere was reached in CO2, in carbon dioxide.
00:09:46:24 - 00:10:18:14
Fuencisla Cañadas
So how cyanobacteria that are photosynthetic organisms were able to work. So through this project through the MaPLE Project we reconstructed the environmental conditions from this area 3 billion years ago and we identify periods of oxygen rich waters within this anoxic environment. So we believe that this oxygen was produced by cyanobacteria that thrived in that area thanks to a higher phosphorus content in the water that was present.
00:10:18:19 - 00:10:39:05
Abigail Acton
And then we come full circle back to the idea of the importance of phosphorus and the fact that the phosphorus was present permitting that. That's fantastic. And tell me, how does this tie into your ideas with regards to the possibility of very, very, very long, distant life on Mars? I know that you are very interested in certain calcium lakes that are being looked at by the Mars rover.
00:10:39:05 - 00:10:40:17
Abigail Acton
Can you tell us a bit more about that?
00:10:40:18 - 00:11:13:00
Fuencisla Cañadas
Yeah, sure. Well, the principal hypothesis is that this photosynthetic activity and that's area in Canada favored the precipitation of carbonates and then the formation of this platform where these stromatolites are preserved to date. So this is where the story becomes even more intriguing because we can connected it with Mars. So when life emerged on earth, conditions were very similar on Mars with liquid water and oxy waters and also a carbon dioxide rich atmosphere.
00:11:13:02 - 00:11:39:00
Fuencisla Cañadas
And however on earth there were some, let's say, a restricted areas where conditions favored the appearance of life. But what happens to Mars? Well, what about Mars? So carbonates there on Mars are very, very rare. And the reason for this is not very well understood yet. So, for example, acidic conditions on Mars could have inhibited a carbonate to precipitate, but also on earth.
00:11:39:00 - 00:11:57:15
Fuencisla Cañadas
Conditions were acidic and life emerged in those isolated areas. So what about if then I wonder with my team. And what about these if the formation of those carbonates on Mars was influenced by life like many places here on Earth.
00:11:57:17 - 00:11:59:10
Abigail Acton
So you are sort of turning it around there.
00:11:59:10 - 00:12:00:03
Fuencisla Cañadas
Yes, I think.
00:12:00:03 - 00:12:06:17
Abigail Acton
They are fascinating. So it's not that the carbonate environments gave rise to life because they were favorable, but maybe they were caused by life.
00:12:06:21 - 00:12:24:14
Fuencisla Cañadas
Exactly. This is just an idea we that we are developing and is very difficult to answer. And to me, I actually really believe that this interesting question maybe answer with the Mars sample return mission which is the most ambitious mission that NASA ever had.
00:12:24:14 - 00:12:29:19
Abigail Acton
So that's NASA's mission to bring back as it says, samples from Mars. It's fantastic.
00:12:29:19 - 00:12:45:04
Fuencisla Cañadas
And currently the mission, the Perseverance rover that is now on Mars is collecting rocks, rock samples from Jezero Crater. And this crater is special because it's one of the few spots on Mars where carbonates have been identified.
00:12:45:06 - 00:13:00:16
Abigail Acton
Well, a gut sounds fascinating. So you don't know what's around the corner. And if you get your chance to have a look at some of the samples that come back, if that works out for you, because I know that you are very keen, I know not alone to get your hands on some of the samples. You might be proved right.
00:13:00:16 - 00:13:11:07
Abigail Acton
When wouldn't that be fantastic? That would be amazing. Well, there you go. It's brilliant. Thank you so much. And you really brought that to life for us. I'm very appreciative. Does anyone have any questions for Fuen? Yes, Mirko.
00:13:11:09 - 00:13:33:08
Mirko Trisolini
Yes, Thank you. I was wondering that what you were mentioning about this connection between Earth and Mars, if, for example, when collecting the samples on Mars, they have been exposed to a lot of radiation, for example. So the radiation environment would be much harsher, would it have some consequences? And when you analyze and you compare these samples with Earth.
00:13:33:10 - 00:14:08:18
Fuencisla Cañadas
Of course the comparison between the Mars and the Earth has some limitations. And one of them, one very important is the one that you mentioned. Is the surface of Mars has been exposed for millions of years to high doses of radiation. But this is why here on Earth, one part of our analysis is to compare samples from for example, this area in Canada, we use them as an analog and then we use them and we run, perform different analysis and then we perform the same analysis.
00:14:08:18 - 00:14:20:05
Fuencisla Cañadas
Once those samples have been radiated in laboratories, and then we can get different signatures and then we can compare together a more reliable signature of the data that is coming from Mars.
00:14:20:07 - 00:14:38:15
Abigail Acton
So to just basically to get to get closer to what is actually probably going to be coming back. Yes. Thank you very much. Excellent question, Mirko, thank you so much. Thank you. I'm going to turn to Ann now. Ann the ROADMAP project wanted to establish the impact of dust on the Martian atmosphere. Why is it so necessary to gain a better understanding of the role of dust and clouds over Mars?
00:14:38:15 - 00:15:16:08
Ann Carine Vandaele
Thank you, Abigail. It's quite important to understand the role of dust and clouds on Mars. But in fact, on any planet it's as important because dust and clouds are impacting the atmosphere in many aspects. So for example, they are constraining the water cycle. They are impacting relative processes occurring in the atmosphere. The way the solar radiation, for example, interacts with the atmosphere and they even impacts the circulation.
00:15:16:08 - 00:15:49:19
Ann Carine Vandaele
So the way air masses are moving around. We have shown recently that it has impact on the long term evolution of the atmosphere of the planet because more dust on Mars was linked to a larger escape of hydrogen, which is an element of the atmosphere. And so we could show the link between dust and losing an atmosphere.
00:15:50:00 - 00:16:00:14
Abigail Acton
Right. Fascinating. And I believe, of course, it also has an impact on how we observe planets, how we interpret data from our remote observations. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
00:16:00:18 - 00:16:40:06
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes, indeed. And that's actually another aspect that was studied into the during the ROADMAP project was the impact of dust and clouds on the investigation and the analysis of the data recorded by sounding instruments. So usually the atmospheres are sounded using spectroscopy and so you will use a fingerprint as we mentioned earlier, that is really giving information on the presence of the gas and how much there is of this gas.
00:16:40:08 - 00:17:04:00
Ann Carine Vandaele
But of course, dust and clouds also have fingerprints, which are overlapping the features shown by atmosphere gases. So in order to get to the abundances after gases, you must first have a very good idea how much dust and clouds there are.
00:17:04:02 - 00:17:21:13
Abigail Acton
Yeah, no, I get that. Totally. So in order to be able to look for what you actually want to be looking at, you need to be able to filter out the noise, the interference that's coming from these extra masses that are circulating around. And that's fascinating. It's obvious when you say it, but it's one of those things that doesn't immediately come to mind.
00:17:21:15 - 00:17:36:11
Abigail Acton
And I suppose this might actually even have implications for the safety of future missions, because if you are trying to determine atmospheric properties that connects directly with programing of various space machinery and vehicles. No. Is that true?
00:17:36:11 - 00:18:09:17
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes. And this is, in fact, very important for the exploration of Mars, because dust, in fact, is present on the planet everywhere, every time. And on top of that, sometimes dust domes can evolve. We still don't know why and how. And they can even evolve itself into global dust storms so completely surrounding the planet. And you do not want to land something on the planet when there is such storms.
00:18:09:19 - 00:18:27:03
Ann Carine Vandaele
So we need to get more information on the storms themselves from the dust to have an idea how the storms can be created and when it is better to try to get there.
00:18:27:09 - 00:18:46:18
Abigail Acton
Yeah, so the nature of the origin of the storm and whether there's a kind of predictability to them that that can be factored in. Yeah, no, I get that totally. We've been thinking a little bit with Fuen just now about the notion of analogs. I find this fascinating. I mean, the areas that you chaps are researching also very, very, very remote and so very, very inaccessible.
00:18:46:20 - 00:19:09:08
Abigail Acton
And obviously everybody here is very anxious to get their hands on real life samples. This is totally understandable. But until the samples returned from Mars, you are having to make do with analogs. Can you explain a little bit more about analogs? What exactly are analogs and how are they used in a laboratory for research such as yours, for example?
00:19:09:10 - 00:19:41:11
Ann Carine Vandaele
That's a very good question. In fact, as you said, we still do not have samples from the Martian surface. The same for Venus, for example. That will be even more tricky to have some. So what we do in the laboratory on Earth is to use what we call analogs. That means samples which are made of what we find on Earth and what we think would be the most representative of what is on Mars.
00:19:41:13 - 00:20:03:04
Ann Carine Vandaele
And so it's based on our preconception of what is there of course, we now have a good idea of what is made up of to the surface of Mars, but we do not know the details and so on. Analogs are our best definition of what we think it is.
00:20:03:06 - 00:20:16:12
Abigail Acton
Fascinating and I think also you can create conditional analogs where with pressure chambers and so on, you can actually try and create environmental factors that are similar. For example, Fuen was talking about exposing her rocks to radiation to see what happens.
00:20:16:16 - 00:20:43:03
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes. And so that's something that we did in ROADMAP. We used analogs, but in environments which are similar to what is expected on Mars. And for example, one of the experiments was to use a wind tunnel in which the dust would be placed on a sand bed and then the wind would blow in the tunnel.
00:20:43:05 - 00:21:00:21
Ann Carine Vandaele
And the tunnel is in conditions which are close to the pressure which is found on Mars. So very low pressure. So in this wind tunnel, we could reproduce some of the conditions which are expected to happen on Mars.
00:21:01:00 - 00:21:02:10
Abigail Acton
And how fast was the wind going?
00:21:02:10 - 00:21:04:08
Ann Carine Vandaele
Well, I don't remember.
00:21:04:10 - 00:21:12:12
Abigail Acton
I was expecting a massive great big number, you know, two kilometers a second. I bet it was going very, very, very fast there. And what did you find?
00:21:12:18 - 00:21:44:07
Ann Carine Vandaele
So we find very interesting results. So, for example, some are related to the depth of dust which can be lifted. So you might think that the quantity of dust which is lifted is not directly impacted on the depth of the dust layer and that's one of the thing that we found that in fact, no, it is impacted. So if the dust layer is very thin, this dust is not moved away by the wind.
00:21:44:13 - 00:21:47:16
Ann Carine Vandaele
So that's one of the findings.
00:21:47:21 - 00:22:02:15
Abigail Acton
But that's very interesting, Okay. So once it's thick, then the top layer comes off more easily. Interesting. Okay. Thank you very much Ann, that's fantastic. I really appreciate that description. It was very clear. Does anyone have any comments or observations to make to Ann? Yes. Fuen. What would you like to ask?
00:22:02:15 - 00:22:19:15
Fuencisla Cañadas
Thanks Ann. Just a curiosity, so when you perform experiments with dust, how do you characterize the dust? I guess is a similar composition of the real dust on Mars? I think, but how do you characterize it?
00:22:19:17 - 00:22:49:02
Ann Carine Vandaele
So first, the analogs that we used are in fact, commonly found on Earth in the sense that you can buy Martian analogs. And we started from those and indeed, because one of the things we wanted to investigate is the impact of the size of the dust particles. We first made sure that our samples where characterize in terms of size and size distribution.
00:22:49:04 - 00:23:16:18
Ann Carine Vandaele
So there are a lot of different measurement that you can do to check the size distribution of your sample. You can have direct measurement of the sizes, but you can also have images taken of the samples to see the shapes of the grains to a lot of, I would say analytical inspection of the samples was done. So we knew what our samples where we are made of.
00:23:16:20 - 00:23:24:21
Abigail Acton
And you also have data coming back from the rover with the probe. You've got chemical profiles and other things coming through physical, physical data coming through, no?
00:23:24:21 - 00:23:42:14
Ann Carine Vandaele
We have some images from the rovers and they're sampling the surface. So we have some ideas and that's how you built your analog. So the one that you can buy they are built on measurements and observations.
00:23:42:18 - 00:24:04:09
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Thank you very much for that clarification. Super good point, Fuen, thank you. Mirko, I'm going to turn to you. Your project was called CRADLE or in full: Collecting Asteroid-Orbiting Samples: enabling a safer, sustainable, and autonomous exploration of asteroids. Now, we've been talking about dust, so I'm sure we're going to come on to the notion of dust from asteroids and that sort of thing as well in the collection of that.
00:24:04:15 - 00:24:09:24
Abigail Acton
But before we do, why this area of research, Mirko, what got you involved in this in the first place?
00:24:10:03 - 00:24:33:07
Mirko Trisolini
Thank you for the question Abigail. I started my study, I have to say in space engineering and in my dream, my masters, I always wanted to contribute in some ways to space exploration missions, to interplanetary missions. But in the end, my career, my research career had brought me to a different direction.
00:24:33:07 - 00:24:34:04
Mirko Trisolini
At a certain point.
00:24:34:07 - 00:24:35:24
Abigail Acton
It often happens.
00:24:36:01 - 00:25:08:16
Mirko Trisolini
Exactly it’s really predictable at the end of the day, not as much as you want usually. But at the end of the day I had this opportunity with this project to, let's say, take everything that I had learned during these years, especially related to dynamics and dynamics of small particles and debris in particular in my case, and I tried to apply it to a different to a different field and in particular to space exploration missions and missions to asteroids and comets and this smaller bodies in the solar systems.
00:25:08:18 - 00:25:14:15
Mirko Trisolini
And so I tried to let's say transition a bit and apply what I had learned before into a different era.
00:25:14:17 - 00:25:34:16
Abigail Acton
But it's still it's still relevant. I mean, the ability to understand how to interact with small, small bodies moving a great speed is is also vital to the missions as well, I would have thought. But anyway, let's go back to CRADLE. What did it set out to do? Your project and I know you wanted to further our understanding of these environments, but specifically, what were you looking at?
00:25:34:18 - 00:26:02:21
Mirko Trisolini
Basically, when we started with the project, we thought, let's say, let's see if we can find a way to sample, let's say, material from these remote small bodies like asteroids and comets in a different way, which has not been done so far. I could ask, why would you want to do that before mission to have done this, which had just a few, did it, for example, by landing on a body or touchdown, actually most often touched down.
00:26:02:23 - 00:26:23:12
Mirko Trisolini
But then maybe some ways in some occasions where this is not possible. And for example, this can happen if the environment of the asteroid is a bit too challenging. For example, we might have a too rough terrain or we may have a dynamical environment of the asteroid, which is very challenging.
00:26:23:14 - 00:26:24:15
Abigail Acton
Like a lot of dust, for example.
00:26:24:17 - 00:26:46:17
Mirko Trisolini
There could be dust, but it could also be, maybe dust is not so challenging in this case actually, but it is more the way the asteroid moves. So because you don't know it before, it's very difficult to understand how actually the asteroid looks like from the earth and how it moves. And there are very small bodies out there that actually rotate very, very, very fast.
00:26:46:19 - 00:26:58:10
Mirko Trisolini
And it would be difficult for it for a satellite actually to touch on the surface of this body. And so we wanted to try to find different ways and different approaches to enable sampling from these small bodies.
00:26:58:12 - 00:27:07:23
Abigail Acton
Okay. And can I just ask you why? I mean, why don't we just leave them in piece spinning around incredibly quickly in the outer regions of the vast space? Why do we want to know?
00:27:08:00 - 00:27:35:21
Mirko Trisolini
Absolutely. We could do that, but sometimes we are interested in that. And for example, I would say that we are especially interested in this small fast rotating bodies because these are usually this type of asteroids are actually small asteroids below 100 below even 50 meters. And these are basically the class of our asteroids the most common in the solar system, but are also the ones that are more probable to enter the Earth's atmosphere, for example.
00:27:35:23 - 00:28:04:15
Mirko Trisolini
And so we want to know how they are made and what is their composition, because it could be useful also for us in understanding what they can do when they enter the Earth's atmosphere. And if you think about it, there is maybe ten years ago in 2013, I think there was an example of this in Russia with the Chelyabinsk event, which this was a very small asteroid and caused a lot of damage by just entering the earth and doing the shockwave basically that caused a lot of damage and some injured people.
00:28:04:15 - 00:28:11:10
Abigail Acton
And I guess the better you understand the nature, the asteroid, the easier it is or not easier, but the more realistic it becomes to try and deflect them. Is that true also?
00:28:11:10 - 00:28:11:22
Mirko Trisolini
Indeed.
00:28:11:24 - 00:28:17:09
Abigail Acton
Okay. Excellent. And so can you tell me a little bit about what you actually did in the project then?
00:28:17:11 - 00:28:40:22
Mirko Trisolini
Yeah, absolutely. So what we did in the project. So first, as I mentioned before, we thought, so how can we find a different way to, to sample this without having to touch this body? And so what we, we thought together also with the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, which I was collaborating with during the project, why don't we try to shoot it with a projectile.
00:28:41:18 - 00:28:51:21
Mirko Trisolini
And this is not something that we come up that it's just one day because, for example, JAXA, the Japan agency, already did it with the Hayabusa2 mission.
00:28:51:22 - 00:28:55:21
Abigail Acton
So is that the mission that I touched on right at the beginning?
00:28:55:23 - 00:29:18:02
Mirko Trisolini
It was perfectly in topic. And actually they did it. So they shoot an asteroid with a projectile to create a crater and study the crater. And so what we thought together and say, why don't we just take it a bit further and let's see if we can do and try to use this methodology to sample the particles that have been generated after this impact.
00:29:18:02 - 00:29:41:18
Mirko Trisolini
And so what we tried to do was to model it and study it as much as we could with methodologies that are available to us at the moment. So we focused on the different aspects of it that we needed to put together to see if this is feasible. And so what we did, we modeled how the projectile interacts with the soil of the asteroid and so how it creates the particle.
00:29:41:18 - 00:30:10:23
Mirko Trisolini
And after these particles are created, how they move around the asteroid. So depending on the shape of the asteroid or the dynamic, how close these asteroids are, for example, to the sun, this will impact how they move. And then what we said we wanted to do was also to say, let's see how we can design a trajectory of the spacecraft around this body with which we can try to collect these particles while they're there and try to take it as many as possible, actually, to try to maximize our return for the mission.
00:30:11:03 - 00:30:30:24
Abigail Acton
So I guess you were sort of also modeling what the impact of this particular projectile would be on the asteroid so that whatever was circling the asteroid to collect the result wouldn't then also get involved in some sort of collision or because I guess if they're very small asteroids and you're firing a projectile at them, they're going to move away.
00:30:31:00 - 00:30:39:21
Mirko Trisolini
You would have to be a very, very large projectile for them to move away, the trajectory is very small, maybe ten centimeters in diameter.
00:30:39:23 - 00:30:42:22
Abigail Acton
So you're not actually playing cosmic billiards.
00:30:42:24 - 00:31:10:23
Mirko Trisolini
But this has been another mission, actually, which recently with NASA and ESA combined that they're still carrying it out. But the trajectory will be smaller about ten, ten, 15 centimeters, which is the one, for example, of hayabusa2. Depending on the material of the asteroids it's sufficient to create a very large crater. For example, Hayabusa2 created a 15 meters, one five over 15 meters diameter crater.
00:31:10:23 - 00:31:26:05
Abigail Acton
With a tiny little projectile. So it's fascinating. really wonderful. Thank you very much. And do you have some findings to share? Did you do you have any takeaways that were particularly interesting at because the project's terminated now? So what was the key thing that you want to take away with this or tell us about?
00:31:26:07 - 00:31:54:13
Mirko Trisolini
I think we found quite a few things in the end because we studied which kind of asteroids would be more suitable for such a type of collection. And usually these are asteroids which are on the smaller side, let's say less than a kilometer. And not too dense, for example. And usually it would be best to do it with asteroids that are not too rocky, For example, it's a bit more of a sandy material, which is typically what we have seen in past missions, for example.
00:31:54:15 - 00:32:29:21
Mirko Trisolini
But it is not certain. And also several takeaways I think from the project were the methodology that we used. And I hope this can be used in, say, even further missions and in analyzing and giving the possibilities for exploring these bodies further. And we actually already did some preliminary analysis for the extended mission of Hayabusa2, which will go to one of these very small asteroids that is small, fast rotating asteroids, and will hopefully reach it in 2031, if I'm not mistaken.
00:32:29:23 - 00:32:34:05
Mirko Trisolini
And it would see hopefully some of the results we obtained will be used for this mission.
00:32:34:05 - 00:32:50:06
Abigail Acton
Well, it would be fantastic. That's obviously brilliant. I think one of the things that I'm hearing from all of you is how your work is feeding into the next mission and the next mission. So it's a continual building on and building up from previous research. It's fascinating. It must feel wonderful to be part of such a big a whole.
00:32:50:12 - 00:32:54:12
Abigail Acton
That's great. Does anyone have any questions for Mirko please? Yes Ann.
00:32:54:14 - 00:33:03:14
Ann Carine Vandaele
Yes. I was wondering if your methods were only applicable to airless bodies.
00:33:03:22 - 00:33:32:15
Mirko Trisolini
Thank you for the question. I think that what we mainly studied, it's mainly applicable to bodies without an atmosphere. They have to be smaller asteroid size. They can be a few hundred meters, but they can be some kilometers. But having an atmosphere would be way more challenging because the motion of the dust would be way different, really, really different.
00:33:32:15 - 00:33:50:01
Mirko Trisolini
Because if we don't have an atmosphere, it's a bit easier to predict how they will move the dynamics are much simpler than if you have, for example, winds or some other aspects that could change their trajectory wildly, like in a body with an atmosphere.
00:33:50:03 - 00:34:04:12
Abigail Acton
Like Martian dust. Listen, thank you so very much for your time. That was just wonderful. I really, really enjoyed that. It's sort of New Horizons opening up there. Wonderful. Thanks a lot for joining me today on CORDIScovery.
00:34:04:17 - 00:34:07:24
Mirko Trisolini
Thank you very much. And thanks for having me in the interview.
00:34:08:01 - 00:34:08:23
Abigail Acton
Good stuff Mirko.
00:34:09:00 - 00:34:09:22
Fuencisla Cañadas
Thank you, Abigail.
00:34:10:02 - 00:34:11:22
Ann Carine Vandaele
Thank you. Bye bye.
00:34:11:22 - 00:34:12:14
Mirko Trisolini
Bye bye bye.
00:34:14:23 - 00:34:34:01
Abigail Acton
We had fun listening to this episode of CORDIScovery. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and check out the podcast home page on the Cordis dot Europa dot EU website. Subscribe to make sure that the hottest research in EU funded science isn't passing you by. And if you end up chatting to someone about podcasts you're enjoying, why not
00:34:34:01 - 00:34:54:13
Abigail Acton
Name drop CORDIScovery. We talked about lights being used to direct fish away from nets, development and personalized treatment to target cancer. And how surprised crows are by certain magical tricks. In our previous episodes, they'll be something there to tweak your curiosity. Perhaps you want to know what other EU funded projects are doing to improve our understanding of the mechanics of space.
00:34:54:14 - 00:35:16:06
Abigail Acton
The CORDIS website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by Horizon 2020 and Horizon Europe that are working in these areas. The website has articles and interviews that explore the results of research being conducted in a very broad range of domains and subjects from megafauna to megabits. There's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in the project or would like to apply for funding.
00:35:16:11 - 00:35:30:03
Abigail Acton
Take a look at what others are doing in your domain, so come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line. Editorial at Cordis Dot Europa Dot EU. Until next time.
The dynamics of space explored
This episode of CORDIScovery explores how life on Earth might have begun, and whether that could inform our research into the possibility of early life on Mars. And we consider dust – there’s a lot of it on and above Mars. What role did it play in the loss of Martian atmosphere in the distant past and, right now, how is it impacting on our interpretation of remote sensor data? Beyond Mars, we also consider asteroids: how do space scientists seem to manage the impossible? Back in 2018 a Japanese mission landed two rovers on an asteroid 400 metres wide, over 300 million kilometres from Earth. If you’ve had trouble backing into a garage, ponder on that. So, what’s the latest on designing and operating deep space missions to asteroids? How can we model, track and collect asteroid fragments? Is it time to start eyeing up asteroid mining start-ups? Fuencisla Cañadas is a geochemist who works at the Centre for Astrobiology in Spain. Cañadas, who worked on the MaPLE project, is interested in reconstructing the environmental conditions of Earth’s early development, with a particular emphasis on the phosphorus-carbon cycle, as a way of improving our understanding of the co-evolution of the environment and life. Ann Carine Vandaele works at the Royal Belgian Institute for Space Aeronomy. She has been involved in the design and operation of instruments for the remote sensing of planetary atmospheres and is particularly interested in the role of clouds and dust in their composition, which she explored in the ROADMAP project. Mirko Trisolini is an astrodynamics specialist at Vyoma, a German company specialising in understanding, and effectively managing, space traffic. Trisolini, the principal investigator on the CRADLE project, is interested in the study of the dynamics of small particles, and techniques designed to collect them from asteroids and other small bodies in the Solar System.
Happy to hear from you!
If you have any feedback, we’re always happy to hear from you! Send us any comments, questions or suggestions to: editorial@cordis.europa.eu
Keywords
MaPLE, ROADMAP, CRADLE, Mars, life, asteroids, deep space, dust, atmosphere, space traffic