Dalla ricerca di acqua sulla Luna alle rivelazioni sulle prime forme di vita terrestri offerte da Titano: l’ultimo episodio di CORDIScovery esplora «l’ultima frontiera»
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Transcript
CORDIScovery podcast- Episode #7 - Solar system exploration
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:35:10
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery. Hello. Welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. What can distant planets and their satellite moons tell us about the origins of life on Earth? Are there lunar sources of oxygen that could make the moon a gateway to our solar system? New and emerging technologies are opening up an exciting era in space exploration.
00:00:35:14 - 00:00:55:21
Abigail Acton
NASA hopes that its forthcoming Artemis mission will enable the establishment of a base camp on the moon that can support 2 to 3 month expeditions and help prepare the way for manned missions to Mars and beyond the moon. Can we looked at Titan to better understand our own origins, and how can we build on what we know about the Earth's geology to better understand Mars and other planets?
00:00:56:02 - 00:01:06:10
Abigail Acton
So many questions. Good job. We have three leading space researchers who have been funded under the EU horizon 2020 program to share their exciting results and hopefully provide some answers.
00:01:06:12 - 00:01:07:15
Jeremi Gancet
To these questions.
00:01:07:17 - 00:01:27:22
Abigail Acton
We welcome to Jeremi Gancet who is responsible for the technologies, applications and Research division at Space Applications Services in Belgium. Jeremy leads R&D activities focusing on on orbit servicing, robotics and robotic technologies for space exploration. He is the coordinator of the LUVMI-X project. Hello, Jeremy.
00:01:28:03 - 00:01:29:05
Jeremi Gancet
Hello, everyone.
00:01:29:07 - 00:01:43:02
Abigail Acton
Nathalie Carrasco professor in planetary science at the University of Paris-Saclay, is interested in the chemistry occurring in planetary atmospheres and how it might contribute to the emergence of life. She is the principal investigator of the PrimChem Project. Hi, Natalie.
00:01:43:05 - 00:01:44:06
Nathalie Carrasco
Hello, everyone.
00:01:44:13 - 00:02:11:23
Abigail Acton
Stephanie Werner the principal investigator of the PTAL project, is the professor of geophysics and planetary science at the University of Oslo. She is interested in planet formation and the evolution of their surfaces and interior. Hello. Hello. Thank you all for being here. Jeremy. The LUVMI-X project can really be seen as having two objectives. Designing a rover that can transport and operate scientific instruments in what I find at the very romantically named permanently shadowed region and the development of those instruments themselves.
00:02:12:00 - 00:02:14:22
Abigail Acton
Where is the permanently shadowed region and what do we know about it?
00:02:15:02 - 00:02:41:14
Jeremi Gancet
Well, in fact, it's not just a one such permanently shadowed region, but a number of smaller ones. And these are actually areas that are never exposed to direct sunlight, and therefore they are not contaminated by sun radiations. So this makes it like very interesting locations for for scientists to call for exploration. And they are very challenging to access actually often in craters that are difficult to reach and extremely cold.
00:02:41:16 - 00:02:45:17
Jeremi Gancet
So it's very challenging for the instruments and for the rover to get there.
00:02:45:18 - 00:03:00:24
Abigail Acton
So in fact, it's permanently shadowed regions rather than region actually. Yeah. Because I was seeing some great expanse but in fact okay I see so basically yeah it's the parts that are shrouded so deeper craters and so on. I see what you mean. So can you give us an idea of what sort of sensors are being developed and why?
00:03:01:00 - 00:03:31:12
Jeremi Gancet
Yes. So we are developing different scientific instruments, and they are being worked out by the different partners of our consortium. We have, for instance, a prototype sampler, which is, actually a tuning system that can go to the 20cm deep, component to a compact mass spectrometer, which is a device that allows analyzing the chemicals which are contained in the volatiles and really the chemicals that can, like, evaporate rather easily.
00:03:31:14 - 00:03:50:23
Jeremi Gancet
And we have also an instrument called the lynx, which is a laser induced, spectroscopy instrument, which basically, consists in a device that can zap rocks at some distance with a laser beam and analyze remotely the chemicals in the gauges, which, which are released.
00:03:50:24 - 00:03:56:22
Abigail Acton
And what are you hoping to find? I mean, I can see that these sensors are fascinating. Will give us more data.
00:03:56:23 - 00:04:24:16
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, well, we are primarily focused on, water ice detection. This is really one of the key aspects we were interested in. It has really some scientific interest, primarily, but it may really also help, with applicative, to, topics, applications in the, in the future. Because from water, we can extract oxygen, which is really key for, for first of all, for the human presence.
00:04:24:18 - 00:04:47:02
Jeremi Gancet
Assuming this is something we may achieve in the future. But also for spacecraft, propulsion. Because when you you have oxygen and you can bring hydrogen, it's really the key components for, for, for spacecraft purposes. And you could make really, easier space transportation to, to Mars or to other other planets in the solar system in the next decades.
00:04:47:04 - 00:04:53:21
Abigail Acton
So the idea of, of of the moon being a stepping stone, that's partly what the Artemis program is, is hoping to achieve by NASA.
00:04:53:23 - 00:05:04:07
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, I'm sure the other initiatives in the US go in the direction to to investigate and characterize those volatiles and water presents. Indeed.
00:05:04:09 - 00:05:17:16
Abigail Acton
Fascinating. Okay. So, how are you actually testing these instruments and what challenges are you coming across? Because I can imagine there's problems, not least, as you say, the constantly dark, hard to access, but also no gravity.
00:05:17:18 - 00:05:39:15
Jeremi Gancet
Yes. Correct. So for the instrument themselves, the the test carried out by the partners, essentially, verifying, figuring out how they perform in conditions which are quite similar to what someone may find on the moon, which is quite complicated. Repairs on their seats with, special test facilities, which are vacuum chambers and extremely low temperatures within.
00:05:39:17 - 00:06:03:12
Jeremi Gancet
And, these the challenge they're typically to reproduce soil simulant which is really quite close to this winter wriggle needs that you can find like on the south pole of the moon. It's very tricky to get something accurate because nobody has been there yet. So it's based on the observations made by scientists so far and a number of assumptions, because simply nobody really knows actually how it is.
00:06:03:12 - 00:06:11:13
Abigail Acton
Like, and the challenges that are being thrown up. You mentioned a consortium. Where are the various people based that are actually trying to tackle and solve these problems?
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:34:03
Jeremi Gancet
Right. So we have several universities involved, and we mentioned the Open University in the UK and the Dakota University of Munich, for instance, working on such such aspects. We have a total of seven partners in the consortium with, say most of them working on instruments and my company space that he's working on the Rover platform itself, which is also another challenge in terms of tests.
00:06:34:05 - 00:06:40:07
Abigail Acton
And what's what's one of the key problems that you found with the rover itself? Actually having a vehicle that can can get to these places.
00:06:40:07 - 00:07:12:04
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah. What is also tricky to to to do with the rover, to, to take the weight to test it would require to have also quite similar conditions. But gravity there is a bit concerned. On the moon you have that 1616 of the Earth's gravity. And this is something which is tricky to reproduce. So we may also have to, to, to deal with limited to let's say a representative of of the environment where we, we, we bring the rover and we have to deal with that and still manage to progress and prepare the platform to for potential future mission.
00:07:12:06 - 00:07:22:02
Abigail Acton
And talking about that, that's where I was going to go to next. Then if the test do go well or the aspects that do perform well, when do you think they could actually be used? When did they come out of simulated environments and go into the real thing?
00:07:22:05 - 00:07:46:22
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah. Well, we really hope indeed that we'll be in good position after this, the series of tests to, to move to the next stage, which basically means getting even further in the maturation process of the, of the rover platform itself and the instrumentation space, great components that will, make it really ready for every mission that that could hopefully take place, perhaps between 2025 and 2030 and hopefully closer to 2025.
00:07:47:02 - 00:07:53:14
Abigail Acton
That exciting? Do we have any questions due to either you, Natalie, or Stephanie? Have any questions for Jeremy? Natalie.
00:07:53:16 - 00:08:04:12
Nathalie Carrasco
You were talking about the challenge of, for for for the vehicle of the low gravity. But there are also some difficulties. For example, with the dust, with the surface,
00:08:04:14 - 00:08:28:00
Jeremi Gancet
Itself. Yeah, that's in a major concern. It's quite difficult to reproduce, reproduce the release, this composition or the soil composition. And it's major challenge on the moon. The dust is extremely, abrasive and very damaging in a piece of hardware. So this is definitely something to, to pay attention. But really difficult to reproduce. Across the universe as well.
00:08:28:02 - 00:08:28:23
Jeremi Gancet
Absolutely.
00:08:29:00 - 00:08:32:09
Abigail Acton
Good question. Natalie, does anyone have any other questions for Jeremy?
00:08:32:11 - 00:08:34:13
Nathalie Carrasco
Yes. I have a second question, please.
00:08:34:13 - 00:08:35:14
Abigail Acton
Yes. Nothing.
00:08:35:16 - 00:08:45:19
Nathalie Carrasco
So you were, of course, talking about importance of water as a volatile to be detected, but are there some other, interesting volatiles that you are, looking for?
00:08:45:21 - 00:09:06:19
Jeremi Gancet
Well, it remains the the primary one, to be honest. But our partners are interested in, in, in notifying other of the traces of volatiles, although, I mean, not necessarily be able to tell you exactly what are the the other chemicals which are really high interest for, for our colleagues. Yes. They there are also the other interest besides water.
00:09:06:21 - 00:09:09:11
Jeremi Gancet
Water is a key one that not only.
00:09:09:13 - 00:09:21:14
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Thank you very much, Natalie, to, you know, actually, the primchem project focused its attention on the atmosphere around Titan, Saturn's largest satellite. Why did you choose Titan? Why was Titan of interest?
00:09:21:16 - 00:09:45:07
Nathalie Carrasco
Oh, I studied Titan because it is a unique object in the solar system. Of course. So what makes it really special? It is that it has a thick atmosphere. We the pressure almost equal to the one we have on us today. And like Earth, this atmosphere is maybe made of molecular nitrogen. But contrarily to the US today it is deprived in oxygen.
00:09:45:09 - 00:10:14:06
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, Titan informs us on the possible atmospheric chemistry that was at stake on us before the emergence of life. So you probably know the primitive soup theory, I suppose. So with the atmosphere of, of Titan, we are able to test this theory. So the theory actually is that you to investigate if, the atmosphere could provide prebiotic building blocks for the emergence of life on Earth about somewhere 4 billion years ago.
00:10:14:06 - 00:10:23:10
Nathalie Carrasco
From now. And with Titan, we are able to observe the best observable analog in the solar system today to study this hypothesis in real time.
00:10:23:11 - 00:10:30:06
Abigail Acton
And when you say study this hypothesis in real, how do you go about replicating the characteristics of Titan's atmosphere in a laboratory?
00:10:30:08 - 00:10:41:11
Nathalie Carrasco
Oh, in the laboratory, I replicate Titan. Because, it's really difficult to study it, in, in situ. Actually, of course, of course.
00:10:41:13 - 00:10:42:13
Abigail Acton
But how do you do it?
00:10:42:15 - 00:11:06:11
Nathalie Carrasco
So I do it by developing an experimental platform that mimics the effect of the extreme UV radiation of the sun when it reached the highest part of Titan's atmosphere. So the principle of this experiment is quite simple. First, we flew a gas mixture at low pressure, which is consistent with the main composition of Titan atmosphere. And those are, nitrogen and methane molecules.
00:11:06:13 - 00:11:23:18
Nathalie Carrasco
We introduce them in a stainless steel reactor, and then we expose this gas mixture to photons and electrons representative of the harsh radiations that reach the top of Titan's atmosphere. These harsh radiation are able to dissociate and even ionize nitrogen and methane.
00:11:23:18 - 00:11:26:04
Abigail Acton
Know when you say dissociate, what do you mean by that?
00:11:26:06 - 00:11:52:11
Nathalie Carrasco
It breaks the bonds comprising molecular nitrogen. Nitrogen is. And so it it is able to break the triple bond between the two nitrogen atoms and methane. The chemical composition is one carbon and four hydrogen. This radiation are also able to dissociate to. So to break these bonds and even detach electrons and produce, ionized species.
00:11:52:13 - 00:12:02:00
Nathalie Carrasco
So this leads to a very efficient chemical network. Actually, the new reactive species react with each other and grow.
00:12:02:00 - 00:12:08:22
Abigail Acton
And when you say species, we tend to think of species of birds and so on. Hang on a second. So these newly reactive elements really.
00:12:08:23 - 00:12:27:01
Nathalie Carrasco
Hierarchical species in our chemical jargon. But yeah. So what do you mean with you. Yeah. Yeah. Of course for us it means not only neutral and stable molecules but also ions and radical. So very, reactive species, everything that is, a specific chemical structure.
00:12:27:05 - 00:12:29:14
Abigail Acton
So we're really thinking molecules essentially.
00:12:29:16 - 00:12:34:05
Nathalie Carrasco
Not only molecules because molecules for me, for chemists, it means a stable one.
00:12:34:07 - 00:12:44:09
Abigail Acton
Oh, I see okay. So you're thinking of molecules then. Beyond molecules, beyond things that are stable, as you just said, the reactive and so on. Exactly. Okay.
00:12:44:11 - 00:12:48:06
Nathalie Carrasco
All these chemical species you can use.
00:12:48:06 - 00:12:53:08
Abigail Acton
But now we're clear that we don't mean parrots and sparrows.
00:12:53:10 - 00:13:27:13
Nathalie Carrasco
So they react with each other and crew. They attach together and condense. And with our experiment we are able to produce analogs of the haze, the chemical haze that surrounds Titan and which is observable. And these analogs, we we have named them Titan's. So dense. And, thanks to the the lab experiments and the high performances of the diagnosis available in the lab, we are able to match the composition of Titan Tholins and provide us based answers to Titan far away chemistry.
00:13:27:13 - 00:13:29:05
Abigail Acton
Now, when you say HAC, what do you mean by that?
00:13:29:11 - 00:13:38:04
Nathalie Carrasco
I try to decipher the chemistry. Okay. You understand how the, the the molecules and ions, attach together and.
00:13:38:04 - 00:13:38:21
Abigail Acton
Interact.
00:13:39:00 - 00:13:42:00
Nathalie Carrasco
Extremely complex, chemical, haze.
00:13:42:02 - 00:13:56:05
Abigail Acton
And this haze that, that you've managed to reproduce and the and the characteristics that you've observed with regards to how things break and fragment and recombine. Does this lead you to some some some theories, some ideas with regards to early life on Earth?
00:13:56:07 - 00:14:22:03
Nathalie Carrasco
Actually, this is directly, connected to this question of emergence of life on, on us. We have shown that at high altitude in Titan atmosphere nitrogen, the molecular, molecular nitrogen becomes essential, for for atmospheric chemistry. We have shown that it, strongly participates to the organic growth. And that's, all the large molecules that are produced through Titan chemistry.
00:14:22:03 - 00:14:46:14
Nathalie Carrasco
They often contain more than one nitrogen atoms per molecules. So it is very nitrogen rich. This is very important for nitrogen, prebiotic chemistry, for example, it leads to the formation of adenine, which is a basis, composing our DNA, for example. And we have also shown that, this, nitrogen rich has continue to evolve during its descent in Titan atmosphere.
00:14:46:19 - 00:14:51:14
Nathalie Carrasco
And this provides an incredibly rich organic potential to Titan's surface.
00:14:51:15 - 00:15:07:20
Abigail Acton
Let me stop you just there because, we've been talking about the the higher levels of the atmosphere of Titan. How can you assess how can you work out that, in fact, this is descending lower through the atmosphere and finally arriving on the surface in the state that it is what what instrumentation allows you to, to, to realize that.
00:15:08:16 - 00:15:32:01
Nathalie Carrasco
So we know that, the aerosol we spent something like one year, in the atmosphere, descending through gravity toward the surface. And, they grow and evolve and they will evolve through, in particular, the interaction again with the solar radiation. And we were also able to mimic the interaction between the analogs of Titan haze and the solar radiation.
00:15:32:01 - 00:15:47:01
Nathalie Carrasco
And we found that, this led to further chemical evolution. So the aerosol when they reach the surface of Titan, they will be extremely, complex, but still, nitrogen rich and, involving, prebiotic molecules.
00:15:47:01 - 00:15:54:18
Abigail Acton
That's absolutely fascinating. Nathalie. So, the principal finding that you've come away with is this or did you build on this to come up with one other conclusion?
00:15:54:18 - 00:16:21:01
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, now, we, I first developed this experiment to, contribute to to understand the recent, data obtained by the Cassini space mission. Because with this space mission, the instrumentation had not the capacity to really understand these complex molecules. It remained out of reach. So thanks to the experiment, we were able to further interpret the data.
00:16:21:03 - 00:16:49:22
Nathalie Carrasco
But now we are also working to contribute to prepare the next mission to towards Titan, which is the dragonfly space mission. And this one will actually study the surface of Titan. So now it's very important to study how this haze will interact with the surface with the radiation, but also with, liquid surface, with the ethane and methane lakes that, have been found at the at the surface of Titan to prepare this for future mission.
00:16:49:24 - 00:17:08:01
Abigail Acton
So sounds it sounds really fabulous. I mean, I'm always been fascinated. I know very, very little about, about your your areas of research. But space exploration has always really fascinated me. So you're really hoping that what you've established in the laboratory will be borne out by the sensors on dragonfly? This is where you get to find out whether theory matches reality.
00:17:08:03 - 00:17:13:01
Abigail Acton
And when will when will the dragonfly mission mission take place? When is it proposed that it will take place?
00:17:13:03 - 00:17:24:11
Nathalie Carrasco
It will. It has been selected. It will be launched in 2027. But it takes some time to reach Titan because it's, in the in the suburbs of Saturn. So it's quite far away from here.
00:17:24:12 - 00:17:31:01
Abigail Acton
I love the term suburbs. The suburbs. How cool is that? So how long will it take? More or less, to.
00:17:31:01 - 00:17:39:24
Nathalie Carrasco
Reach Titan's surface? In 2035. And, it will explore Titan's surface during three years. About three years. Minimum.
00:17:40:01 - 00:17:47:01
Abigail Acton
So 2035 is when we must all remember to keep our fingers crossed. For, you know, I will put that in my calendar. I know.
00:17:47:03 - 00:17:47:20
Nathalie Carrasco
That's everything.
00:17:48:00 - 00:18:01:12
Abigail Acton
But very good. When you think of all the problems that you had to to solve whilst conducting your research, what was the most challenging? What was the one thing that really kept you up at night and made you think, am I ever going to resolve this one?
00:18:01:14 - 00:18:25:16
Nathalie Carrasco
Actually, I think that, all the the new answers and the new science is really coming with the new technologies, actually, in the sense that, we we wonder we have a lot of questions in mind. But to to really explore them, we often needs to develop some new, research and develop a new techniques to, to answer this question.
00:18:25:16 - 00:18:30:05
Nathalie Carrasco
So it's really a coupling between technology and science that works together.
00:18:30:05 - 00:18:34:03
Abigail Acton
So the technology exists to answer questions, but in fact it provokes even more.
00:18:34:05 - 00:18:35:10
Nathalie Carrasco
Exactly. That's what.
00:18:35:12 - 00:18:43:16
Abigail Acton
Is like. So it's like an endless wheel, which is just as well, because it means there's always more research to do. You're never out of business. Very good. Thank you.
00:18:43:16 - 00:18:45:11
Jeremi Gancet
Natalie, I ask one more question also.
00:18:45:12 - 00:18:46:15
Abigail Acton
Jeremy, please.
00:18:46:17 - 00:18:55:12
Jeremi Gancet
Thanks. So Natalie was just wondering whether you will develop or in Latin. What's in your lab? Some instruments for for the dragonfly mission.
00:18:55:17 - 00:19:22:05
Nathalie Carrasco
Yes, actually, in my lab. So my work is really what I describe. So, to, to develop experimental supports on Earth for, space mission. But my lab is very involved in this space mission at let mouse and, colleagues of mine are developing two instruments for dragonfly mission one to study the, electric properties of the soil and another one to make some, complex chemical analyzes at the surface.
00:19:22:09 - 00:19:44:09
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Thank you. Any other questions for Natalie? Well, then can I turn to Stephanie? Hello, Stephanie. How are you? Hello. Welcome. The planetary Terrestrial Analogs Library project, PTAL, for short, has the wonderfully practical goal of creating a database of geological features shown by a wide variety of rocks on Earth that can then be used to help profile specimens from other planets.
00:19:44:09 - 00:20:05:07
Abigail Acton
I find this very satisfying. I don't know whether it's the. It's the it's the side of me that likes classifying things or having things neatly sort of arranged and labeled, or whether it's the practical element that you will have a database that will then enable people to understand characteristics of geological features and rocks in a situation that's very hard to to, to work in.
00:20:05:07 - 00:20:11:07
Abigail Acton
Or how are you actually thinking that this database can be used practically and what does it contain?
00:20:11:09 - 00:20:44:01
Stephanie Werner
So I think you have described it quite well already. So we have rock collection, which shall be like, catalog cards to interpret what the instruments measure. And, this catalog cards, actually a little more complicated because we use, several instruments to characterize the specific rock, and dice instruments, and later on, flown to Mars, for example, where we do not have all the facilities which we have on Earth to characterize.
00:20:44:03 - 00:21:02:12
Stephanie Werner
And therefore, by combining the knowledge we have collected here now with this complicated big instruments, and then they come miniaturized to space, we still can derive from this combination of information we have collected here all the details which we cannot directly measure.
00:21:02:15 - 00:21:26:04
Abigail Acton
I think now I think it's wonderful. I think that's great. So basically they go with the database that allows them very, very quickly to find a comparative result from something that we've measured more like almost leisurely or comfortably, at least on Earth. Can you tell me a little bit more about where these rocks that you're analyzing and, and, you're analyzing, basically, where do they come from all over Earth or any particular region?
00:21:26:04 - 00:21:31:16
Stephanie Werner
So it's actually not so important where they come from. It's more important what they are made of.
00:21:31:16 - 00:21:32:08
Abigail Acton
Yes.
00:21:32:10 - 00:22:08:22
Stephanie Werner
So we have focused on samples which are volcanic rocks, but these rocks are not made of minerals or as atmosphere species we have discussed before. So they have, specific mineral combinations, but it's also not, again, so important. Rich minerals in itself, there are. But if they have the right proportion in the rock to dip arrived and some of the history of how this rock formed and then even more complicated is that this minerals have, specific proportion of elements.
00:22:09:01 - 00:22:30:24
Stephanie Werner
So for example, iron, aluminum and magnesium and calcium. And unlike Earth's rocks, this, rocks on Mars are more iron rich. So we have to make all these, detailed combinations to find the right analog so that we then get a good match of all these rocks.
00:22:31:01 - 00:22:36:04
Abigail Acton
Yes. And and a match for what you anticipate is likely to be found when when there is a mission to Mars.
00:22:36:06 - 00:23:06:16
Stephanie Werner
Exactly. And the big difference to previous, of this, libraries was that they focus specifically on minerals. But if we look at the, grinded a block in the machinery of, Rover on Mars, then we actually have a full set of all these different minerals in a different combination, so that we then have to, use this complexity, what we have already observed on Earth, to then sink a little more.
00:23:06:16 - 00:23:18:14
Stephanie Werner
What which kind of rock we found, if it's a basalt or a granite in the extreme. So it's then very different how they formed and what this implies for the history of Mars.
00:23:18:15 - 00:23:37:04
Abigail Acton
And that's exactly what I was going to ask you. So thank you for coming to that. What I was wondering was why? So we have the rock samples that we've analyzed that come from us. We put them into the database, and we know what we're looking for a little bit, because we're taking data that's coming from what's been mashed up and crunched up and pulverized by the Martian rovers, wheels and so on.
00:23:37:04 - 00:23:42:09
Abigail Acton
So we know more about the composition of the Martian rocks. But what what do we hope that that will tell us?
00:23:42:11 - 00:24:06:14
Stephanie Werner
So one thing is, of course, that we when we have the rover running around measuring the rocks, we have, of course, studied exactly that area already from spacecrafts flying around Mars. So satellite data. And at one point we want to match what we have seen from space far away and what we find on the surface in a very, very localized place.
00:24:06:16 - 00:24:33:06
Stephanie Werner
And again, for that, because Tim methods, we use and some have been explained already for, for the moon today. This maybe some of the methods can tell us about the element, a, amount of elements of a specific, type. Then we can say how they are combined so that they form a specific crystal or mineral.
00:24:33:08 - 00:25:01:21
Stephanie Werner
But then also we have, color and shape and so on. But the instruments with center, they cannot do all this together because they are smaller and they are maybe not all there. So we use this, library also to, have extra knowledge when we measure with two instruments, that we then can say, oh, yeah, but if we would have an, an additional instrument, it should then look like this.
00:25:01:21 - 00:25:04:21
Stephanie Werner
So we have much more knowledge about what we measure should.
00:25:04:23 - 00:25:17:05
Abigail Acton
So it basically completes the picture which by definition must have some elements missing. And by elements I mean pieces missing. Yes. But, but I understand that, but what I'm wondering is why bother? And so, I mean, I.
00:25:17:07 - 00:25:18:08
Stephanie Werner
I forgot about that.
00:25:18:14 - 00:25:27:11
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Think that's kind of important. I mean, I guess the whole point about knowledge for knowledge is sake, and I'm really into that. But but what are you hoping that that will be revealed by these. These.
00:25:27:13 - 00:25:54:19
Stephanie Werner
Yeah. So so s so, Mars is a very complicated system of processes, and we talk about climate change and weather, and, weathering and how rocks transform from, volcanic rock into, sand and soil or something like this. So all these processes are chemical, modification of what has been formed before and, what comes out of it.
00:25:54:21 - 00:26:26:10
Stephanie Werner
So like a complicated, chemical reaction chain just for us, it's more to be touched because we know rocks under street. So when we measure the information and the rocks and the alteration products, then we can actually derive how sick the atmosphere was in the past of on Mars or how how different things evolve in the atmosphere like Mars, which is dominated by CO2, totally different than on Earth.
00:26:26:10 - 00:26:52:04
Stephanie Werner
And by all this comparison, we can actually learn about Earth and about Mars and what we do not understand. We try to reproduce in the lab. And I think when you look at all these examples of today, this combination is very, very useful to have experiments, measurements, observations and so on. And only by all this together one can get something new out of it.
00:26:52:09 - 00:27:01:16
Abigail Acton
Yeah they can, but as we said earlier, a more complete picture. Very good. Yeah, I can see your point. Totally. Do we have any questions at all for Stephanie? We have Jeremy. What would you like to ask?
00:27:01:16 - 00:27:18:23
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, just a couple of questions. But, from what you've mentioned, the Stephanie, I'm just to. There was focus on Mars primarily that, are there indeed those materials in the database or do you plan to have material about but the moon and other planets around.
00:27:19:00 - 00:27:46:04
Stephanie Werner
We have quite a broad range of materials. We have also are not to site, but, because the specific instruments which we used will go to Mars. So we have, focused on this once, and yes, it's applicable to all the planets where there is, volcanic activity and water present to alter the surface. And in this sense, it's broader.
00:27:46:04 - 00:27:51:17
Stephanie Werner
We can use it for small bodies and for mercury, maybe in the past or something.
00:27:51:19 - 00:27:52:06
Abigail Acton
Jeremy.
00:27:52:11 - 00:28:00:12
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, just a quick one to to finish on my side. Just wondering basically, how can we access this database or when we would be able to access it?
00:28:00:15 - 00:28:04:19
Abigail Acton
That's an excellent question, Jeremy. You see you've got to use a queuing up there already.
00:28:04:21 - 00:28:27:06
Stephanie Werner
And that's I'm very happy about exactly this question because the whole, database will be released by end of the project and at the end of September this year. And the the rock collection can be accessed and also the, the all the measurements with the different instruments. So and I guess some of them are very interesting to you.
00:28:27:08 - 00:28:28:21
Jeremi Gancet
It sounds good. Specifically. Yes.
00:28:28:21 - 00:28:46:09
Abigail Acton
We seem to have perfect timing for this. So just waiting for you for when you come back from holiday. Jeremy, you must be very, very busy at the moment. Stephanie. So we appreciate the time you're spending with us this morning. So, I would, just check that there are any other questions that you would like to ask each other before I come to my final quick round question.
00:28:46:09 - 00:28:47:20
Abigail Acton
How exciting.
00:28:47:22 - 00:29:02:17
Nathalie Carrasco
Thank you. I have one chance, Natalie. Go for it. I am imagining the database, actually. How will it be organized? What will be the the key? Entrances. How do you, classify the the different trucks?
00:29:02:19 - 00:29:39:00
Stephanie Werner
Yeah. So we have minerals as such. Item and we have, rock type as such item. Everything which can be described by what we have, even geography of where the samples are coming from. And, also, features in the spectra, which are important. So it's, I think quite a wide range of how you can search for it and in it or, and then you can display the data specifically to check how, clear or not so clear the detections are.
00:29:39:02 - 00:29:51:20
Nathalie Carrasco
Yeah. Actually, the idea I had in mind is that I suppose it is very related to habitability criteria. So will we be able to find some information related to habitability according to the rocks. So you are studying like.
00:29:51:21 - 00:29:55:18
Abigail Acton
Can I just stop you for a second habitability. You mean what by that. Exactly.
00:29:55:20 - 00:30:02:19
Stephanie Werner
So habitability is, the word for whether or not, can life exist? But that's not.
00:30:02:19 - 00:30:03:13
Abigail Acton
Life.
00:30:03:15 - 00:30:35:01
Stephanie Werner
Yeah. And I think that's what you also meant was habitability. You can derive yourself the amount of water which was needed to reach this, weathering process status. And, of course, the big trouble is that on Earth rocks, we have a lot of, biological influence in the processes which occur. And, therefore, this rocks, of course, analogs in the, assemblage of different minerals and, elements.
00:30:35:03 - 00:30:57:19
Stephanie Werner
But they are not analogs in the sense of how they form. So therefore it's not a direct match to, to say if we find this rock type or this, clay mineral, then, we know it was 50 millibar. What, in the atmosphere or something like this. So we cannot do that.
00:30:57:21 - 00:31:04:10
Abigail Acton
Okay, that seems perfectly reasonable. So they might have the same sort of compositions, but they might not have got there the same way.
00:31:04:12 - 00:31:12:21
Stephanie Werner
No, because we have geological processes on Earth, like plate tectonics, which we do not assume for, for Mars, for example.
00:31:12:23 - 00:31:33:03
Abigail Acton
Right. Okay. Any more questions? Okay. Well then I'm going to step in with my final one to all of you. So, I'm just going to ask this to to all of you. And you just answer in turn. Let's project ourselves 50 years into the future. All right. How do you see that future developing and what part will your results and findings have played?
00:31:33:08 - 00:31:36:13
Abigail Acton
So I shall turn to Natalie first.
00:31:36:15 - 00:32:01:24
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, in the next decades, we can we know that humanity will probably have a comeback to the moon. Possibly also landed for the first time on Mars. So I guess that in 50 years from now we will have spread. Maybe everywhere in the solar system. Maybe we will begin to look outside the in the direction of habitable exoplanets.
00:32:02:01 - 00:32:25:20
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, I hope that, with my project, we will have contributed to, first characterize the prebiotic resources that are available on, one of the most habitable, in habitats in the solar system, which is Titan, but also to understand and predict the role of atmospheric chemistry into the emergence of life on Earth and maybe beyond in the universe.
00:32:25:23 - 00:32:42:10
Abigail Acton
That sounds wonderful. I set your timeline is very tight. Oh, gosh, that sounds quite exciting, actually. I was sort of envisaging what you're talking about as being hundreds of years time. But you're right. I mean, once these things start rolling, they roll quite quickly. Jeremy, same question to you. 50 years time there will be, what will the role of your project play?
00:32:42:12 - 00:33:08:05
Jeremi Gancet
Right. So yeah, we love me. Well, we may expect to hopefully improve the standing of the environmental conditions on the moon. You know, preparing a sustainable human presence, most likely. And, health making use of local resources to, to enable, more affordable and more frequent, interplanetary interplanetary missions. The solar system just coming back was sort of worth and Natalie.
00:33:08:07 - 00:33:14:15
Abigail Acton
And would you like to go Jeremi? Well, if you were able to get to the moon, would you let me on that? Let me on that spaceship. Let me on this space.
00:33:14:16 - 00:33:28:12
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah. Well, I mean, anywhere. I'm fine. I would go, to to to Mars, most likely, and then farther into Titan and other locations. That would be, exciting to explore. Was probably in the next decades.
00:33:28:14 - 00:33:42:11
Abigail Acton
I have to say I'd be an armchair traveler on that. I'd be wishing you all bon voyage and waiting for your postcards back at home. So, Stephanie, can I come to you? If we think about 50 years time, where do you think we'll be? And what role do you think your project will have played in that region?
00:33:42:13 - 00:34:05:15
Stephanie Werner
It's, one of this, projects which shall help to find life on Mars. So, maybe we do that. Maybe we we for sure know that we have to bring it ourself there. So I think that is, time frame in 50 years from now for Mars. We also know that we have already taken 50 years to try to understand Mars.
00:34:05:15 - 00:34:32:08
Stephanie Werner
So maybe actually, we are still challenging and struggling with all these things because we don't really know how life evolved. And, whether we do actually search in the right way for it and, whether it is enough to find specific molecules which, which then, allow us to say that is the guarantee for forming living cells out of that.
00:34:32:13 - 00:34:38:13
Stephanie Werner
And I think this will be one of the other challenges which we still keep on thinking in 50 years.
00:34:38:15 - 00:34:39:17
Abigail Acton
Well, maybe we.
00:34:39:17 - 00:34:41:03
Stephanie Werner
Can check more places.
00:34:41:09 - 00:35:01:00
Abigail Acton
Maybe we should check back in with each other in in 50 years time, or at least maybe somebody say 20 and see whether your, your prophecies are, coming about. And if we are still struggling to understand the nature of life on other planets and how it evolved here on Earth, then part of the answers will be coming through from your research, because it's all been very, very interesting what you've been doing.
00:35:01:02 - 00:35:16:22
Abigail Acton
And, providing answers and also providing the next generation of questions, as is the nature of science, raising more questions and answers each time. Very good. Thank you very, very much for your time and your attention. It's been a great fun and a really good discussion.
00:35:16:24 - 00:35:19:24
Jeremi Gancet
Thank you very much again for these discussions.
00:35:19:24 - 00:35:47:11
Abigail Acton
For me, if you're interested in what other EU funded projects are doing in the field of space exploration, take a look at issue 104 of the research EU magazine available on the Cordis website. Cordis.europa.eu. The Cordis website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by the horizon 2020 program. Find daily news articles and interviews with researchers working in a very broad range of domains, from the intelligence of crows to artificial intelligence.
00:35:47:13 - 00:36:05:16
Abigail Acton
Results packs drill down deeper gathering groups of projects by subject area, and the magazine showcases research on a different subject in each edition. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding. Take a look at what others are doing in your domain. So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick.
00:36:05:18 - 00:36:17:09
Abigail Acton
Our next episode considers another frontier philosophy and its relation to science. Observational anomalies. How do we approach them? Join me in autumn to hear what our next three guests are exploring.
00:36:17:13 - 00:36:22:24
Unknown
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:35:10
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery. Hello. Welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. What can distant planets and their satellite moons tell us about the origins of life on Earth? Are there lunar sources of oxygen that could make the moon a gateway to our solar system? New and emerging technologies are opening up an exciting era in space exploration.
00:00:35:14 - 00:00:55:21
Abigail Acton
NASA hopes that its forthcoming Artemis mission will enable the establishment of a base camp on the moon that can support 2 to 3 month expeditions and help prepare the way for manned missions to Mars and beyond the moon. Can we looked at Titan to better understand our own origins, and how can we build on what we know about the Earth's geology to better understand Mars and other planets?
00:00:56:02 - 00:01:06:10
Abigail Acton
So many questions. Good job. We have three leading space researchers who have been funded under the EU horizon 2020 program to share their exciting results and hopefully provide some answers.
00:01:06:12 - 00:01:07:15
Jeremi Gancet
To these questions.
00:01:07:17 - 00:01:27:22
Abigail Acton
We welcome to Jeremi Gancet who is responsible for the technologies, applications and Research division at Space Applications Services in Belgium. Jeremy leads R&D activities focusing on on orbit servicing, robotics and robotic technologies for space exploration. He is the coordinator of the LUVMI-X project. Hello, Jeremy.
00:01:28:03 - 00:01:29:05
Jeremi Gancet
Hello, everyone.
00:01:29:07 - 00:01:43:02
Abigail Acton
Nathalie Carrasco professor in planetary science at the University of Paris-Saclay, is interested in the chemistry occurring in planetary atmospheres and how it might contribute to the emergence of life. She is the principal investigator of the PrimChem Project. Hi, Natalie.
00:01:43:05 - 00:01:44:06
Nathalie Carrasco
Hello, everyone.
00:01:44:13 - 00:02:11:23
Abigail Acton
Stephanie Werner the principal investigator of the PTAL project, is the professor of geophysics and planetary science at the University of Oslo. She is interested in planet formation and the evolution of their surfaces and interior. Hello. Hello. Thank you all for being here. Jeremy. The LUVMI-X project can really be seen as having two objectives. Designing a rover that can transport and operate scientific instruments in what I find at the very romantically named permanently shadowed region and the development of those instruments themselves.
00:02:12:00 - 00:02:14:22
Abigail Acton
Where is the permanently shadowed region and what do we know about it?
00:02:15:02 - 00:02:41:14
Jeremi Gancet
Well, in fact, it's not just a one such permanently shadowed region, but a number of smaller ones. And these are actually areas that are never exposed to direct sunlight, and therefore they are not contaminated by sun radiations. So this makes it like very interesting locations for for scientists to call for exploration. And they are very challenging to access actually often in craters that are difficult to reach and extremely cold.
00:02:41:16 - 00:02:45:17
Jeremi Gancet
So it's very challenging for the instruments and for the rover to get there.
00:02:45:18 - 00:03:00:24
Abigail Acton
So in fact, it's permanently shadowed regions rather than region actually. Yeah. Because I was seeing some great expanse but in fact okay I see so basically yeah it's the parts that are shrouded so deeper craters and so on. I see what you mean. So can you give us an idea of what sort of sensors are being developed and why?
00:03:01:00 - 00:03:31:12
Jeremi Gancet
Yes. So we are developing different scientific instruments, and they are being worked out by the different partners of our consortium. We have, for instance, a prototype sampler, which is, actually a tuning system that can go to the 20cm deep, component to a compact mass spectrometer, which is a device that allows analyzing the chemicals which are contained in the volatiles and really the chemicals that can, like, evaporate rather easily.
00:03:31:14 - 00:03:50:23
Jeremi Gancet
And we have also an instrument called the lynx, which is a laser induced, spectroscopy instrument, which basically, consists in a device that can zap rocks at some distance with a laser beam and analyze remotely the chemicals in the gauges, which, which are released.
00:03:50:24 - 00:03:56:22
Abigail Acton
And what are you hoping to find? I mean, I can see that these sensors are fascinating. Will give us more data.
00:03:56:23 - 00:04:24:16
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, well, we are primarily focused on, water ice detection. This is really one of the key aspects we were interested in. It has really some scientific interest, primarily, but it may really also help, with applicative, to, topics, applications in the, in the future. Because from water, we can extract oxygen, which is really key for, for first of all, for the human presence.
00:04:24:18 - 00:04:47:02
Jeremi Gancet
Assuming this is something we may achieve in the future. But also for spacecraft, propulsion. Because when you you have oxygen and you can bring hydrogen, it's really the key components for, for, for spacecraft purposes. And you could make really, easier space transportation to, to Mars or to other other planets in the solar system in the next decades.
00:04:47:04 - 00:04:53:21
Abigail Acton
So the idea of, of of the moon being a stepping stone, that's partly what the Artemis program is, is hoping to achieve by NASA.
00:04:53:23 - 00:05:04:07
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, I'm sure the other initiatives in the US go in the direction to to investigate and characterize those volatiles and water presents. Indeed.
00:05:04:09 - 00:05:17:16
Abigail Acton
Fascinating. Okay. So, how are you actually testing these instruments and what challenges are you coming across? Because I can imagine there's problems, not least, as you say, the constantly dark, hard to access, but also no gravity.
00:05:17:18 - 00:05:39:15
Jeremi Gancet
Yes. Correct. So for the instrument themselves, the the test carried out by the partners, essentially, verifying, figuring out how they perform in conditions which are quite similar to what someone may find on the moon, which is quite complicated. Repairs on their seats with, special test facilities, which are vacuum chambers and extremely low temperatures within.
00:05:39:17 - 00:06:03:12
Jeremi Gancet
And, these the challenge they're typically to reproduce soil simulant which is really quite close to this winter wriggle needs that you can find like on the south pole of the moon. It's very tricky to get something accurate because nobody has been there yet. So it's based on the observations made by scientists so far and a number of assumptions, because simply nobody really knows actually how it is.
00:06:03:12 - 00:06:11:13
Abigail Acton
Like, and the challenges that are being thrown up. You mentioned a consortium. Where are the various people based that are actually trying to tackle and solve these problems?
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:34:03
Jeremi Gancet
Right. So we have several universities involved, and we mentioned the Open University in the UK and the Dakota University of Munich, for instance, working on such such aspects. We have a total of seven partners in the consortium with, say most of them working on instruments and my company space that he's working on the Rover platform itself, which is also another challenge in terms of tests.
00:06:34:05 - 00:06:40:07
Abigail Acton
And what's what's one of the key problems that you found with the rover itself? Actually having a vehicle that can can get to these places.
00:06:40:07 - 00:07:12:04
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah. What is also tricky to to to do with the rover, to, to take the weight to test it would require to have also quite similar conditions. But gravity there is a bit concerned. On the moon you have that 1616 of the Earth's gravity. And this is something which is tricky to reproduce. So we may also have to, to, to deal with limited to let's say a representative of of the environment where we, we, we bring the rover and we have to deal with that and still manage to progress and prepare the platform to for potential future mission.
00:07:12:06 - 00:07:22:02
Abigail Acton
And talking about that, that's where I was going to go to next. Then if the test do go well or the aspects that do perform well, when do you think they could actually be used? When did they come out of simulated environments and go into the real thing?
00:07:22:05 - 00:07:46:22
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah. Well, we really hope indeed that we'll be in good position after this, the series of tests to, to move to the next stage, which basically means getting even further in the maturation process of the, of the rover platform itself and the instrumentation space, great components that will, make it really ready for every mission that that could hopefully take place, perhaps between 2025 and 2030 and hopefully closer to 2025.
00:07:47:02 - 00:07:53:14
Abigail Acton
That exciting? Do we have any questions due to either you, Natalie, or Stephanie? Have any questions for Jeremy? Natalie.
00:07:53:16 - 00:08:04:12
Nathalie Carrasco
You were talking about the challenge of, for for for the vehicle of the low gravity. But there are also some difficulties. For example, with the dust, with the surface,
00:08:04:14 - 00:08:28:00
Jeremi Gancet
Itself. Yeah, that's in a major concern. It's quite difficult to reproduce, reproduce the release, this composition or the soil composition. And it's major challenge on the moon. The dust is extremely, abrasive and very damaging in a piece of hardware. So this is definitely something to, to pay attention. But really difficult to reproduce. Across the universe as well.
00:08:28:02 - 00:08:28:23
Jeremi Gancet
Absolutely.
00:08:29:00 - 00:08:32:09
Abigail Acton
Good question. Natalie, does anyone have any other questions for Jeremy?
00:08:32:11 - 00:08:34:13
Nathalie Carrasco
Yes. I have a second question, please.
00:08:34:13 - 00:08:35:14
Abigail Acton
Yes. Nothing.
00:08:35:16 - 00:08:45:19
Nathalie Carrasco
So you were, of course, talking about importance of water as a volatile to be detected, but are there some other, interesting volatiles that you are, looking for?
00:08:45:21 - 00:09:06:19
Jeremi Gancet
Well, it remains the the primary one, to be honest. But our partners are interested in, in, in notifying other of the traces of volatiles, although, I mean, not necessarily be able to tell you exactly what are the the other chemicals which are really high interest for, for our colleagues. Yes. They there are also the other interest besides water.
00:09:06:21 - 00:09:09:11
Jeremi Gancet
Water is a key one that not only.
00:09:09:13 - 00:09:21:14
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Thank you very much, Natalie, to, you know, actually, the primchem project focused its attention on the atmosphere around Titan, Saturn's largest satellite. Why did you choose Titan? Why was Titan of interest?
00:09:21:16 - 00:09:45:07
Nathalie Carrasco
Oh, I studied Titan because it is a unique object in the solar system. Of course. So what makes it really special? It is that it has a thick atmosphere. We the pressure almost equal to the one we have on us today. And like Earth, this atmosphere is maybe made of molecular nitrogen. But contrarily to the US today it is deprived in oxygen.
00:09:45:09 - 00:10:14:06
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, Titan informs us on the possible atmospheric chemistry that was at stake on us before the emergence of life. So you probably know the primitive soup theory, I suppose. So with the atmosphere of, of Titan, we are able to test this theory. So the theory actually is that you to investigate if, the atmosphere could provide prebiotic building blocks for the emergence of life on Earth about somewhere 4 billion years ago.
00:10:14:06 - 00:10:23:10
Nathalie Carrasco
From now. And with Titan, we are able to observe the best observable analog in the solar system today to study this hypothesis in real time.
00:10:23:11 - 00:10:30:06
Abigail Acton
And when you say study this hypothesis in real, how do you go about replicating the characteristics of Titan's atmosphere in a laboratory?
00:10:30:08 - 00:10:41:11
Nathalie Carrasco
Oh, in the laboratory, I replicate Titan. Because, it's really difficult to study it, in, in situ. Actually, of course, of course.
00:10:41:13 - 00:10:42:13
Abigail Acton
But how do you do it?
00:10:42:15 - 00:11:06:11
Nathalie Carrasco
So I do it by developing an experimental platform that mimics the effect of the extreme UV radiation of the sun when it reached the highest part of Titan's atmosphere. So the principle of this experiment is quite simple. First, we flew a gas mixture at low pressure, which is consistent with the main composition of Titan atmosphere. And those are, nitrogen and methane molecules.
00:11:06:13 - 00:11:23:18
Nathalie Carrasco
We introduce them in a stainless steel reactor, and then we expose this gas mixture to photons and electrons representative of the harsh radiations that reach the top of Titan's atmosphere. These harsh radiation are able to dissociate and even ionize nitrogen and methane.
00:11:23:18 - 00:11:26:04
Abigail Acton
Know when you say dissociate, what do you mean by that?
00:11:26:06 - 00:11:52:11
Nathalie Carrasco
It breaks the bonds comprising molecular nitrogen. Nitrogen is. And so it it is able to break the triple bond between the two nitrogen atoms and methane. The chemical composition is one carbon and four hydrogen. This radiation are also able to dissociate to. So to break these bonds and even detach electrons and produce, ionized species.
00:11:52:13 - 00:12:02:00
Nathalie Carrasco
So this leads to a very efficient chemical network. Actually, the new reactive species react with each other and grow.
00:12:02:00 - 00:12:08:22
Abigail Acton
And when you say species, we tend to think of species of birds and so on. Hang on a second. So these newly reactive elements really.
00:12:08:23 - 00:12:27:01
Nathalie Carrasco
Hierarchical species in our chemical jargon. But yeah. So what do you mean with you. Yeah. Yeah. Of course for us it means not only neutral and stable molecules but also ions and radical. So very, reactive species, everything that is, a specific chemical structure.
00:12:27:05 - 00:12:29:14
Abigail Acton
So we're really thinking molecules essentially.
00:12:29:16 - 00:12:34:05
Nathalie Carrasco
Not only molecules because molecules for me, for chemists, it means a stable one.
00:12:34:07 - 00:12:44:09
Abigail Acton
Oh, I see okay. So you're thinking of molecules then. Beyond molecules, beyond things that are stable, as you just said, the reactive and so on. Exactly. Okay.
00:12:44:11 - 00:12:48:06
Nathalie Carrasco
All these chemical species you can use.
00:12:48:06 - 00:12:53:08
Abigail Acton
But now we're clear that we don't mean parrots and sparrows.
00:12:53:10 - 00:13:27:13
Nathalie Carrasco
So they react with each other and crew. They attach together and condense. And with our experiment we are able to produce analogs of the haze, the chemical haze that surrounds Titan and which is observable. And these analogs, we we have named them Titan's. So dense. And, thanks to the the lab experiments and the high performances of the diagnosis available in the lab, we are able to match the composition of Titan Tholins and provide us based answers to Titan far away chemistry.
00:13:27:13 - 00:13:29:05
Abigail Acton
Now, when you say HAC, what do you mean by that?
00:13:29:11 - 00:13:38:04
Nathalie Carrasco
I try to decipher the chemistry. Okay. You understand how the, the the molecules and ions, attach together and.
00:13:38:04 - 00:13:38:21
Abigail Acton
Interact.
00:13:39:00 - 00:13:42:00
Nathalie Carrasco
Extremely complex, chemical, haze.
00:13:42:02 - 00:13:56:05
Abigail Acton
And this haze that, that you've managed to reproduce and the and the characteristics that you've observed with regards to how things break and fragment and recombine. Does this lead you to some some some theories, some ideas with regards to early life on Earth?
00:13:56:07 - 00:14:22:03
Nathalie Carrasco
Actually, this is directly, connected to this question of emergence of life on, on us. We have shown that at high altitude in Titan atmosphere nitrogen, the molecular, molecular nitrogen becomes essential, for for atmospheric chemistry. We have shown that it, strongly participates to the organic growth. And that's, all the large molecules that are produced through Titan chemistry.
00:14:22:03 - 00:14:46:14
Nathalie Carrasco
They often contain more than one nitrogen atoms per molecules. So it is very nitrogen rich. This is very important for nitrogen, prebiotic chemistry, for example, it leads to the formation of adenine, which is a basis, composing our DNA, for example. And we have also shown that, this, nitrogen rich has continue to evolve during its descent in Titan atmosphere.
00:14:46:19 - 00:14:51:14
Nathalie Carrasco
And this provides an incredibly rich organic potential to Titan's surface.
00:14:51:15 - 00:15:07:20
Abigail Acton
Let me stop you just there because, we've been talking about the the higher levels of the atmosphere of Titan. How can you assess how can you work out that, in fact, this is descending lower through the atmosphere and finally arriving on the surface in the state that it is what what instrumentation allows you to, to, to realize that.
00:15:08:16 - 00:15:32:01
Nathalie Carrasco
So we know that, the aerosol we spent something like one year, in the atmosphere, descending through gravity toward the surface. And, they grow and evolve and they will evolve through, in particular, the interaction again with the solar radiation. And we were also able to mimic the interaction between the analogs of Titan haze and the solar radiation.
00:15:32:01 - 00:15:47:01
Nathalie Carrasco
And we found that, this led to further chemical evolution. So the aerosol when they reach the surface of Titan, they will be extremely, complex, but still, nitrogen rich and, involving, prebiotic molecules.
00:15:47:01 - 00:15:54:18
Abigail Acton
That's absolutely fascinating. Nathalie. So, the principal finding that you've come away with is this or did you build on this to come up with one other conclusion?
00:15:54:18 - 00:16:21:01
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, now, we, I first developed this experiment to, contribute to to understand the recent, data obtained by the Cassini space mission. Because with this space mission, the instrumentation had not the capacity to really understand these complex molecules. It remained out of reach. So thanks to the experiment, we were able to further interpret the data.
00:16:21:03 - 00:16:49:22
Nathalie Carrasco
But now we are also working to contribute to prepare the next mission to towards Titan, which is the dragonfly space mission. And this one will actually study the surface of Titan. So now it's very important to study how this haze will interact with the surface with the radiation, but also with, liquid surface, with the ethane and methane lakes that, have been found at the at the surface of Titan to prepare this for future mission.
00:16:49:24 - 00:17:08:01
Abigail Acton
So sounds it sounds really fabulous. I mean, I'm always been fascinated. I know very, very little about, about your your areas of research. But space exploration has always really fascinated me. So you're really hoping that what you've established in the laboratory will be borne out by the sensors on dragonfly? This is where you get to find out whether theory matches reality.
00:17:08:03 - 00:17:13:01
Abigail Acton
And when will when will the dragonfly mission mission take place? When is it proposed that it will take place?
00:17:13:03 - 00:17:24:11
Nathalie Carrasco
It will. It has been selected. It will be launched in 2027. But it takes some time to reach Titan because it's, in the in the suburbs of Saturn. So it's quite far away from here.
00:17:24:12 - 00:17:31:01
Abigail Acton
I love the term suburbs. The suburbs. How cool is that? So how long will it take? More or less, to.
00:17:31:01 - 00:17:39:24
Nathalie Carrasco
Reach Titan's surface? In 2035. And, it will explore Titan's surface during three years. About three years. Minimum.
00:17:40:01 - 00:17:47:01
Abigail Acton
So 2035 is when we must all remember to keep our fingers crossed. For, you know, I will put that in my calendar. I know.
00:17:47:03 - 00:17:47:20
Nathalie Carrasco
That's everything.
00:17:48:00 - 00:18:01:12
Abigail Acton
But very good. When you think of all the problems that you had to to solve whilst conducting your research, what was the most challenging? What was the one thing that really kept you up at night and made you think, am I ever going to resolve this one?
00:18:01:14 - 00:18:25:16
Nathalie Carrasco
Actually, I think that, all the the new answers and the new science is really coming with the new technologies, actually, in the sense that, we we wonder we have a lot of questions in mind. But to to really explore them, we often needs to develop some new, research and develop a new techniques to, to answer this question.
00:18:25:16 - 00:18:30:05
Nathalie Carrasco
So it's really a coupling between technology and science that works together.
00:18:30:05 - 00:18:34:03
Abigail Acton
So the technology exists to answer questions, but in fact it provokes even more.
00:18:34:05 - 00:18:35:10
Nathalie Carrasco
Exactly. That's what.
00:18:35:12 - 00:18:43:16
Abigail Acton
Is like. So it's like an endless wheel, which is just as well, because it means there's always more research to do. You're never out of business. Very good. Thank you.
00:18:43:16 - 00:18:45:11
Jeremi Gancet
Natalie, I ask one more question also.
00:18:45:12 - 00:18:46:15
Abigail Acton
Jeremy, please.
00:18:46:17 - 00:18:55:12
Jeremi Gancet
Thanks. So Natalie was just wondering whether you will develop or in Latin. What's in your lab? Some instruments for for the dragonfly mission.
00:18:55:17 - 00:19:22:05
Nathalie Carrasco
Yes, actually, in my lab. So my work is really what I describe. So, to, to develop experimental supports on Earth for, space mission. But my lab is very involved in this space mission at let mouse and, colleagues of mine are developing two instruments for dragonfly mission one to study the, electric properties of the soil and another one to make some, complex chemical analyzes at the surface.
00:19:22:09 - 00:19:44:09
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Thank you. Any other questions for Natalie? Well, then can I turn to Stephanie? Hello, Stephanie. How are you? Hello. Welcome. The planetary Terrestrial Analogs Library project, PTAL, for short, has the wonderfully practical goal of creating a database of geological features shown by a wide variety of rocks on Earth that can then be used to help profile specimens from other planets.
00:19:44:09 - 00:20:05:07
Abigail Acton
I find this very satisfying. I don't know whether it's the. It's the it's the side of me that likes classifying things or having things neatly sort of arranged and labeled, or whether it's the practical element that you will have a database that will then enable people to understand characteristics of geological features and rocks in a situation that's very hard to to, to work in.
00:20:05:07 - 00:20:11:07
Abigail Acton
Or how are you actually thinking that this database can be used practically and what does it contain?
00:20:11:09 - 00:20:44:01
Stephanie Werner
So I think you have described it quite well already. So we have rock collection, which shall be like, catalog cards to interpret what the instruments measure. And, this catalog cards, actually a little more complicated because we use, several instruments to characterize the specific rock, and dice instruments, and later on, flown to Mars, for example, where we do not have all the facilities which we have on Earth to characterize.
00:20:44:03 - 00:21:02:12
Stephanie Werner
And therefore, by combining the knowledge we have collected here now with this complicated big instruments, and then they come miniaturized to space, we still can derive from this combination of information we have collected here all the details which we cannot directly measure.
00:21:02:15 - 00:21:26:04
Abigail Acton
I think now I think it's wonderful. I think that's great. So basically they go with the database that allows them very, very quickly to find a comparative result from something that we've measured more like almost leisurely or comfortably, at least on Earth. Can you tell me a little bit more about where these rocks that you're analyzing and, and, you're analyzing, basically, where do they come from all over Earth or any particular region?
00:21:26:04 - 00:21:31:16
Stephanie Werner
So it's actually not so important where they come from. It's more important what they are made of.
00:21:31:16 - 00:21:32:08
Abigail Acton
Yes.
00:21:32:10 - 00:22:08:22
Stephanie Werner
So we have focused on samples which are volcanic rocks, but these rocks are not made of minerals or as atmosphere species we have discussed before. So they have, specific mineral combinations, but it's also not, again, so important. Rich minerals in itself, there are. But if they have the right proportion in the rock to dip arrived and some of the history of how this rock formed and then even more complicated is that this minerals have, specific proportion of elements.
00:22:09:01 - 00:22:30:24
Stephanie Werner
So for example, iron, aluminum and magnesium and calcium. And unlike Earth's rocks, this, rocks on Mars are more iron rich. So we have to make all these, detailed combinations to find the right analog so that we then get a good match of all these rocks.
00:22:31:01 - 00:22:36:04
Abigail Acton
Yes. And and a match for what you anticipate is likely to be found when when there is a mission to Mars.
00:22:36:06 - 00:23:06:16
Stephanie Werner
Exactly. And the big difference to previous, of this, libraries was that they focus specifically on minerals. But if we look at the, grinded a block in the machinery of, Rover on Mars, then we actually have a full set of all these different minerals in a different combination, so that we then have to, use this complexity, what we have already observed on Earth, to then sink a little more.
00:23:06:16 - 00:23:18:14
Stephanie Werner
What which kind of rock we found, if it's a basalt or a granite in the extreme. So it's then very different how they formed and what this implies for the history of Mars.
00:23:18:15 - 00:23:37:04
Abigail Acton
And that's exactly what I was going to ask you. So thank you for coming to that. What I was wondering was why? So we have the rock samples that we've analyzed that come from us. We put them into the database, and we know what we're looking for a little bit, because we're taking data that's coming from what's been mashed up and crunched up and pulverized by the Martian rovers, wheels and so on.
00:23:37:04 - 00:23:42:09
Abigail Acton
So we know more about the composition of the Martian rocks. But what what do we hope that that will tell us?
00:23:42:11 - 00:24:06:14
Stephanie Werner
So one thing is, of course, that we when we have the rover running around measuring the rocks, we have, of course, studied exactly that area already from spacecrafts flying around Mars. So satellite data. And at one point we want to match what we have seen from space far away and what we find on the surface in a very, very localized place.
00:24:06:16 - 00:24:33:06
Stephanie Werner
And again, for that, because Tim methods, we use and some have been explained already for, for the moon today. This maybe some of the methods can tell us about the element, a, amount of elements of a specific, type. Then we can say how they are combined so that they form a specific crystal or mineral.
00:24:33:08 - 00:25:01:21
Stephanie Werner
But then also we have, color and shape and so on. But the instruments with center, they cannot do all this together because they are smaller and they are maybe not all there. So we use this, library also to, have extra knowledge when we measure with two instruments, that we then can say, oh, yeah, but if we would have an, an additional instrument, it should then look like this.
00:25:01:21 - 00:25:04:21
Stephanie Werner
So we have much more knowledge about what we measure should.
00:25:04:23 - 00:25:17:05
Abigail Acton
So it basically completes the picture which by definition must have some elements missing. And by elements I mean pieces missing. Yes. But, but I understand that, but what I'm wondering is why bother? And so, I mean, I.
00:25:17:07 - 00:25:18:08
Stephanie Werner
I forgot about that.
00:25:18:14 - 00:25:27:11
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Think that's kind of important. I mean, I guess the whole point about knowledge for knowledge is sake, and I'm really into that. But but what are you hoping that that will be revealed by these. These.
00:25:27:13 - 00:25:54:19
Stephanie Werner
Yeah. So so s so, Mars is a very complicated system of processes, and we talk about climate change and weather, and, weathering and how rocks transform from, volcanic rock into, sand and soil or something like this. So all these processes are chemical, modification of what has been formed before and, what comes out of it.
00:25:54:21 - 00:26:26:10
Stephanie Werner
So like a complicated, chemical reaction chain just for us, it's more to be touched because we know rocks under street. So when we measure the information and the rocks and the alteration products, then we can actually derive how sick the atmosphere was in the past of on Mars or how how different things evolve in the atmosphere like Mars, which is dominated by CO2, totally different than on Earth.
00:26:26:10 - 00:26:52:04
Stephanie Werner
And by all this comparison, we can actually learn about Earth and about Mars and what we do not understand. We try to reproduce in the lab. And I think when you look at all these examples of today, this combination is very, very useful to have experiments, measurements, observations and so on. And only by all this together one can get something new out of it.
00:26:52:09 - 00:27:01:16
Abigail Acton
Yeah they can, but as we said earlier, a more complete picture. Very good. Yeah, I can see your point. Totally. Do we have any questions at all for Stephanie? We have Jeremy. What would you like to ask?
00:27:01:16 - 00:27:18:23
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, just a couple of questions. But, from what you've mentioned, the Stephanie, I'm just to. There was focus on Mars primarily that, are there indeed those materials in the database or do you plan to have material about but the moon and other planets around.
00:27:19:00 - 00:27:46:04
Stephanie Werner
We have quite a broad range of materials. We have also are not to site, but, because the specific instruments which we used will go to Mars. So we have, focused on this once, and yes, it's applicable to all the planets where there is, volcanic activity and water present to alter the surface. And in this sense, it's broader.
00:27:46:04 - 00:27:51:17
Stephanie Werner
We can use it for small bodies and for mercury, maybe in the past or something.
00:27:51:19 - 00:27:52:06
Abigail Acton
Jeremy.
00:27:52:11 - 00:28:00:12
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah, just a quick one to to finish on my side. Just wondering basically, how can we access this database or when we would be able to access it?
00:28:00:15 - 00:28:04:19
Abigail Acton
That's an excellent question, Jeremy. You see you've got to use a queuing up there already.
00:28:04:21 - 00:28:27:06
Stephanie Werner
And that's I'm very happy about exactly this question because the whole, database will be released by end of the project and at the end of September this year. And the the rock collection can be accessed and also the, the all the measurements with the different instruments. So and I guess some of them are very interesting to you.
00:28:27:08 - 00:28:28:21
Jeremi Gancet
It sounds good. Specifically. Yes.
00:28:28:21 - 00:28:46:09
Abigail Acton
We seem to have perfect timing for this. So just waiting for you for when you come back from holiday. Jeremy, you must be very, very busy at the moment. Stephanie. So we appreciate the time you're spending with us this morning. So, I would, just check that there are any other questions that you would like to ask each other before I come to my final quick round question.
00:28:46:09 - 00:28:47:20
Abigail Acton
How exciting.
00:28:47:22 - 00:29:02:17
Nathalie Carrasco
Thank you. I have one chance, Natalie. Go for it. I am imagining the database, actually. How will it be organized? What will be the the key? Entrances. How do you, classify the the different trucks?
00:29:02:19 - 00:29:39:00
Stephanie Werner
Yeah. So we have minerals as such. Item and we have, rock type as such item. Everything which can be described by what we have, even geography of where the samples are coming from. And, also, features in the spectra, which are important. So it's, I think quite a wide range of how you can search for it and in it or, and then you can display the data specifically to check how, clear or not so clear the detections are.
00:29:39:02 - 00:29:51:20
Nathalie Carrasco
Yeah. Actually, the idea I had in mind is that I suppose it is very related to habitability criteria. So will we be able to find some information related to habitability according to the rocks. So you are studying like.
00:29:51:21 - 00:29:55:18
Abigail Acton
Can I just stop you for a second habitability. You mean what by that. Exactly.
00:29:55:20 - 00:30:02:19
Stephanie Werner
So habitability is, the word for whether or not, can life exist? But that's not.
00:30:02:19 - 00:30:03:13
Abigail Acton
Life.
00:30:03:15 - 00:30:35:01
Stephanie Werner
Yeah. And I think that's what you also meant was habitability. You can derive yourself the amount of water which was needed to reach this, weathering process status. And, of course, the big trouble is that on Earth rocks, we have a lot of, biological influence in the processes which occur. And, therefore, this rocks, of course, analogs in the, assemblage of different minerals and, elements.
00:30:35:03 - 00:30:57:19
Stephanie Werner
But they are not analogs in the sense of how they form. So therefore it's not a direct match to, to say if we find this rock type or this, clay mineral, then, we know it was 50 millibar. What, in the atmosphere or something like this. So we cannot do that.
00:30:57:21 - 00:31:04:10
Abigail Acton
Okay, that seems perfectly reasonable. So they might have the same sort of compositions, but they might not have got there the same way.
00:31:04:12 - 00:31:12:21
Stephanie Werner
No, because we have geological processes on Earth, like plate tectonics, which we do not assume for, for Mars, for example.
00:31:12:23 - 00:31:33:03
Abigail Acton
Right. Okay. Any more questions? Okay. Well then I'm going to step in with my final one to all of you. So, I'm just going to ask this to to all of you. And you just answer in turn. Let's project ourselves 50 years into the future. All right. How do you see that future developing and what part will your results and findings have played?
00:31:33:08 - 00:31:36:13
Abigail Acton
So I shall turn to Natalie first.
00:31:36:15 - 00:32:01:24
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, in the next decades, we can we know that humanity will probably have a comeback to the moon. Possibly also landed for the first time on Mars. So I guess that in 50 years from now we will have spread. Maybe everywhere in the solar system. Maybe we will begin to look outside the in the direction of habitable exoplanets.
00:32:02:01 - 00:32:25:20
Nathalie Carrasco
So actually, I hope that, with my project, we will have contributed to, first characterize the prebiotic resources that are available on, one of the most habitable, in habitats in the solar system, which is Titan, but also to understand and predict the role of atmospheric chemistry into the emergence of life on Earth and maybe beyond in the universe.
00:32:25:23 - 00:32:42:10
Abigail Acton
That sounds wonderful. I set your timeline is very tight. Oh, gosh, that sounds quite exciting, actually. I was sort of envisaging what you're talking about as being hundreds of years time. But you're right. I mean, once these things start rolling, they roll quite quickly. Jeremy, same question to you. 50 years time there will be, what will the role of your project play?
00:32:42:12 - 00:33:08:05
Jeremi Gancet
Right. So yeah, we love me. Well, we may expect to hopefully improve the standing of the environmental conditions on the moon. You know, preparing a sustainable human presence, most likely. And, health making use of local resources to, to enable, more affordable and more frequent, interplanetary interplanetary missions. The solar system just coming back was sort of worth and Natalie.
00:33:08:07 - 00:33:14:15
Abigail Acton
And would you like to go Jeremi? Well, if you were able to get to the moon, would you let me on that? Let me on that spaceship. Let me on this space.
00:33:14:16 - 00:33:28:12
Jeremi Gancet
Yeah. Well, I mean, anywhere. I'm fine. I would go, to to to Mars, most likely, and then farther into Titan and other locations. That would be, exciting to explore. Was probably in the next decades.
00:33:28:14 - 00:33:42:11
Abigail Acton
I have to say I'd be an armchair traveler on that. I'd be wishing you all bon voyage and waiting for your postcards back at home. So, Stephanie, can I come to you? If we think about 50 years time, where do you think we'll be? And what role do you think your project will have played in that region?
00:33:42:13 - 00:34:05:15
Stephanie Werner
It's, one of this, projects which shall help to find life on Mars. So, maybe we do that. Maybe we we for sure know that we have to bring it ourself there. So I think that is, time frame in 50 years from now for Mars. We also know that we have already taken 50 years to try to understand Mars.
00:34:05:15 - 00:34:32:08
Stephanie Werner
So maybe actually, we are still challenging and struggling with all these things because we don't really know how life evolved. And, whether we do actually search in the right way for it and, whether it is enough to find specific molecules which, which then, allow us to say that is the guarantee for forming living cells out of that.
00:34:32:13 - 00:34:38:13
Stephanie Werner
And I think this will be one of the other challenges which we still keep on thinking in 50 years.
00:34:38:15 - 00:34:39:17
Abigail Acton
Well, maybe we.
00:34:39:17 - 00:34:41:03
Stephanie Werner
Can check more places.
00:34:41:09 - 00:35:01:00
Abigail Acton
Maybe we should check back in with each other in in 50 years time, or at least maybe somebody say 20 and see whether your, your prophecies are, coming about. And if we are still struggling to understand the nature of life on other planets and how it evolved here on Earth, then part of the answers will be coming through from your research, because it's all been very, very interesting what you've been doing.
00:35:01:02 - 00:35:16:22
Abigail Acton
And, providing answers and also providing the next generation of questions, as is the nature of science, raising more questions and answers each time. Very good. Thank you very, very much for your time and your attention. It's been a great fun and a really good discussion.
00:35:16:24 - 00:35:19:24
Jeremi Gancet
Thank you very much again for these discussions.
00:35:19:24 - 00:35:47:11
Abigail Acton
For me, if you're interested in what other EU funded projects are doing in the field of space exploration, take a look at issue 104 of the research EU magazine available on the Cordis website. Cordis.europa.eu. The Cordis website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by the horizon 2020 program. Find daily news articles and interviews with researchers working in a very broad range of domains, from the intelligence of crows to artificial intelligence.
00:35:47:13 - 00:36:05:16
Abigail Acton
Results packs drill down deeper gathering groups of projects by subject area, and the magazine showcases research on a different subject in each edition. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding. Take a look at what others are doing in your domain. So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick.
00:36:05:18 - 00:36:17:09
Abigail Acton
Our next episode considers another frontier philosophy and its relation to science. Observational anomalies. How do we approach them? Join me in autumn to hear what our next three guests are exploring.
00:36:17:13 - 00:36:22:24
Unknown
È un periodo entusiasmante per chi è coinvolto nella ricerca sullo spazio. Nuove tecnologie e una potenza di calcolo maggiore offrono risposte che prima sembravano fuori dalla nostra portata. Cosa possiamo scoprire sull’origine della vita sulla Terra grazie a pianeti distanti e alle loro lune satelliti? Sulla Luna c’è abbastanza acqua per avviare lunghe missioni umane, e vi sono fonti di ossigeno che possano renderla una porta verso il Sistema solare? Guardando oltre il nostro satellite, possiamo scoprire di più sulle nostre origini grazie a Titano? E come possiamo sfruttare le conoscenze sulla geologia terrestre per conoscere meglio Marte e altri pianeti? La nostra padrona di casa Abigail Acton approfondirà queste domande con tre ricercatori beneficiari di sovvenzioni UE. I nostri ospiti racconteranno le sfide che hanno affrontato e quale sperano possa essere il ruolo del loro lavoro nelle future esplorazioni dello spazio. Jeremi Gancet, responsabile della divisione tecnologie, applicazioni e ricerca di Space Applications Services in Belgio, sta progettando un nuovo rover lunare e sensori innovativi. Cosa sperano di scoprire? Nathalie Carrasco, docente di scienze planetarie presso l’Università di Parigi-Saclay, svolge simulazioni dell’atmosfera di Titano per rintracciare le origini della vita sulla Terra. Scopriremo insieme a quali rivelazioni ha condotto il suo lavoro. Infine, Stephanie Werner, docente di geofisica e scienze planetarie presso l’Università di Oslo, racconterà della sua banca dati, ormai quasi completata, dedicata alla composizione delle rocce terrestri, che verrà impiegata per tracciare i profili di quelle di altri pianeti. Marte è mai stato abitabile? Come racconterà Werner, la sua geologia può fornirci un indizio.
Ci piacerebbe conoscere la vostra opinione!
Saremo lieti di leggere tutti i commenti che vorrete sottoporci. Inviateci pareri, domande o suggerimenti all’indirizzo e-mail abituale: editorial@cordis.europa.eu.
Parole chiave
CORDIScovery, CORDIS, esplorazione dello spazio, Luna, Marte, Titano
