The only way is up for the CORDIScovery podcast’s second episode on the future of aviation!
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Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:37:23
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery. Hello and welcome to this episode of the CORDIScovery podcast with me, Abigail Acton. Economies will struggle to get back on their feet in a post-Covid pandemic world, and the aviation sector will undoubtedly have a key role to play. But how do we tackle the great dichotomy? Flights are crucial to GDP, but flying damages the environment.
00:00:38:00 - 00:00:58:14
Abigail Acton
Can we take to the skies while still meeting the objectives of the Paris Agreement? On climate Change, or the EU's goal to be carbon neutral by 2050? And do those living near airports want us to go back to business as normal? Today's three guests, whose work was supported by the EU's horizon 2020 program, may just have some answers.
00:00:58:16 - 00:01:30:24
Abigail Acton
Making hydrogen fueled flights a reality. Redesigning aircraft wings to reduce drag and increase fuel efficiency, and fully understanding local residents perceptions of noise when designing airports or building new runways, or simply wanting them to have easier, more comfortable lives in the vicinity of airports. welcome to a futuristic episode of CORDIScovery with Doctor Andrew Rolt, senior research fellow at Cranfield University, who is researching technologies for liquid hydrogen fueled commercial aviation.
00:01:31:04 - 00:01:41:15
Abigail Acton
Andrew is involved in the ENABLEH2 project. His areas include technology assessment, hydrogen combustion and road mapping. A transition to hydrogen. Welcome, Andrew.
00:01:41:17 - 00:01:42:09
Dr Andrew Rolt
Hello, everybody.
00:01:42:15 - 00:02:02:16
Abigail Acton
Doctor Vittorio Cipolla, assistant professor at the Department of Civil and Industrial Engineering of the University of Pisa, is focused on aircraft design with an emphasis on disruptive architectures. Vittoria was the coordinator of the PARSIFAL project, which designed and analyzed the potential impact of a new box wing design on aviation. Welcome, Vitorio.
00:02:02:22 - 00:02:04:00
Vittorio Cipolla
Hello Abigail and everyone.
00:02:04:02 - 00:02:26:13
Abigail Acton
Doctor Laurent Leylekian, European affairs officer at ONERA the French Aerospace Lab, Lahore is an expert in aviation noise reduction technologies and strategies and the coordinator of the Anima project, which provides authorities and airports with suitable management and mitigation procedures to reduce the annoyance experienced by local residents relating to noise pollution. Hello, Laurent, thank you for joining us today.
00:02:26:13 - 00:02:28:09
Laurent Leylekian
Good afternoon. Hello everyone.
00:02:28:11 - 00:02:37:23
Abigail Acton
Andrew, if I could turn to you to start with, the first thing to address head on is the possible preconception that hydrogen fuel isn't safe. Can you explain why? In fact, it is.
00:02:38:00 - 00:03:06:02
Dr Andrew Rolt
Thanks. Yes, we get this question a lot. And addressing safety concerns is a major aspect of the enable H2 project. Even though hydrogen already has an excellent safety record where it is used today. For example, hydrogen is widely used as a feedstock in the chemical industry, and it is used to cool electrical generators and power stations. Now, the so-called green hydrogen made by the electrolysis of water using renewable energy is rapidly becoming affordable.
00:03:06:04 - 00:03:30:17
Dr Andrew Rolt
We see hydrogen being used as an energy carrier and replacing fossil fuels in all kinds of applications, from domestic heating to ground transport. These are all areas where we want to eliminate CO2 and why safety is vital. This is why Airbus believes in hydrogen fuel. Net zero airliners could be entering service in about 15 years time. And this should not only address global warming, but also improve the air quality.
00:03:30:20 - 00:03:47:08
Dr Andrew Rolt
And. Now, like any fuel, hydrogen will burn, but it does so quickly with relatively little radiation and no smoke. Well, I just like to note that the major airship disasters of the 1970s, it was actually the fuel or not, the hydrogen that sustain the fires.
00:03:47:10 - 00:04:10:12
Abigail Acton
That's very interesting because obviously when we think of those ghastly images, it's that we think of it as being the hydrogen that went up and not the fuel. Or so it's, it's an important point to note. So I understand what you're saying clearly that it is it is perfectly safe. And as you say, it has applications in in industries and, where safety is obviously of the essence.
00:04:10:14 - 00:04:20:19
Abigail Acton
So we can understand that that is the case. But then why should we be working so hard to make liquid hydrogen available alternative to fuel beyond the fact that it's safe? What are the benefits?
00:04:20:21 - 00:04:44:19
Dr Andrew Rolt
Well, some small research aircraft, using compressed hydrogen gas in fuel cells for electric propulsion. But gas tanks weigh more than ten times their content. And this limit, the aircraft range is 12,000km or so and still beats battery powered electric aircraft. But for longer ranges, aircraft will need to carry a lot more fuel, which is where liquid nitrogen comes in.
00:04:44:21 - 00:05:17:14
Dr Andrew Rolt
It's denser and it can be stored at low pressure much like two times. This makes flights of 5000km or more feasible, but the tanks must be well-insulated because liquid hydrogen bottles -252 degrees C not provide some challenges, but also opportunities. Because the cold hydrogen can be used for cooling functions on the engines. University is studying the best ways to improve aero energy efficiency, using heat exchangers that would also be warming up the hydrogen on its way to the combustion.
00:05:17:16 - 00:05:38:22
Dr Andrew Rolt
And at Cranfield, we're modeling and requesting a novel light from its combustor concept. Our aim is to demonstrate high combustion efficiency with very low NOx emissions. NOx and water vapor are the only direct emissions produced by hydrogen. But together with contrails, contrail induced travelers, they can still contribute something to global warming.
00:05:38:24 - 00:06:02:02
Abigail Acton
So I mean, contrails, as a contribution to to warming is obviously a major concern when when it comes to the aviation industry and if hydrogen is still producing the contrails, I understand the benefits that you've just identified and the weight and so on. But how can we mitigate the effect of the contrails? Are they a preferable in their nature somehow to traditional fuel contrails?
00:06:02:04 - 00:06:30:09
Dr Andrew Rolt
Well, yes, we believe the contrails from hydrogen fueled engines will be less opaque and so we'll have less warming effect. In other words, they won't stop the Earth's radiating away heat because unlike kerosene, which is our current aviation fuel, nitrogen won't produce the carbon and sulfur containing particles that act as nuclei. So the formation of contrails and cirrus clouds will narrow engines have very low oil consumption, you know, it will still generate some particles.
00:06:30:15 - 00:06:59:23
Dr Andrew Rolt
So more research is needed because there's still a lot of uncertainty about contrails and their effects on the asset. Those contrails only form under certain atmospheric conditions, and they can generally be avoided by flying different altitudes. Another possible approach might be to extract water from engine exhaust and flying at high altitude, right? The effects of contrails are very short term, but CO2, on the other hand, stays in the atmosphere for many decades, so its greenhouse effects are still seen to be a bigger concern.
00:07:00:00 - 00:07:26:08
Abigail Acton
Right, okay. With regards to the reduction in weight, obviously that that makes the the the planes more efficient. And I know Vittoria the efficiency of the flights, and, and the airplanes themselves is something that possivel has been very interested in. I know that you were considering, the impact of, the reduction of fuel consumption by your new design, which you estimate to be almost by one fourth, so I presume obviously, hydrogen must also be interesting for the part of our project.
00:07:26:10 - 00:08:03:09
Vittorio Cipolla
Yes, exactly. Thank you for this question, Abigail. It's actually our, next step. Now, we have studied, which are the improvement that can be provided by just changing the aircraft architecture without taking, new fuels or new propulsion systems into account. So, and we sure that the results that you have anticipated. So the next step is to take, alternatives like hydrogen fuel or a hybrid electric propulsion system for smaller, aircraft, for example, in accountancy, which will be the combined and the result.
00:08:03:11 - 00:08:10:22
Abigail Acton
And that being the case, would you have any questions that you would like to put to Andrew? Or also, if you have a question you would like to put to Andrew.
00:08:10:23 - 00:08:36:12
Laurent Leylekian
Yeah, maybe, a couple of questions, or at least one. It's a very, I to say teasing hypothesis, this hydrogen combustion. But I would like to know even the case if you make the assumption of a massive conversion of air traffic to hydrogen. Do you have or do we have any assumption or any basis on the under the ability to cope with the demand of hydrogen?
00:08:36:14 - 00:08:46:07
Laurent Leylekian
I mean, facilities to produce this, new fuel, is not here at the moment. And so I would like to know if if it's still, considered.
00:08:46:08 - 00:09:21:16
Dr Andrew Rolt
Yes, that's a good question. The introduction of hydrogen obviously won't happen overnight. We're not going to suddenly convert the engines to to run on hydrogen in the new aircraft, new engines. And, it takes 20 years or more to, to replace a fleet of aircraft. And, initially, obviously hydrogen will be not the only fuel. It's, it's being, used to reduce emissions because we also have, sustainable aviation fuels, biofuels and so on, which will, play a role.
00:09:21:18 - 00:09:46:02
Dr Andrew Rolt
So I think that we will see a development of the hydrogen economy, which will make hydrogen supplies, piping hydrogen to gas as a gas to airports, relatively straightforward. And then in the next phase, we will look to, introduce, hydrogen liquefaction plants, storage facilities for liquid hydrogen. So it will be a build up of, over 30 years.
00:09:46:02 - 00:10:06:21
Abigail Acton
And so thanks, Andrew. Thank you very much. That was a good question. Victoria, if I could turn to you, since we're talking about greener fuels or ways to reduce emissions and so on, obviously energy efficiency is is a key point to this. Can you tell us more about this interesting design that you came up with with regards to a box wing concept?
00:10:07:02 - 00:10:42:17
Vittorio Cipolla
Yes, sure. So in parts of our project, we studied the application of the box green configuration to short to medium range aircraft. So this configuration comes from an idea of 100 years ago, by Ludvig Grant, which is one of the father of our the Nomics. And, it came up to this concept called, best wing system, meaning that this was the system capable to maximize the span efficiency, which is one of the most important component of aerodynamic efficiency, without increasing the wingspan.
00:10:42:19 - 00:11:14:14
Vittorio Cipolla
So if we think to today, requirements of reducing fuel consumption and reducing the environmental impact, one of the possible approaches to improve their dynamics, by acting on the aircraft configuration, traditionally, this is done by increasing the wingspan of aircraft, so creating bigger aircraft, basically. But this is, in conflict with, the airport constraints, increases the level of separation.
00:11:14:16 - 00:11:43:20
Vittorio Cipolla
So the solution we propose in the of our project is to adopt the box wing technology. To increase the aircraft aerodynamics without these increase in the wingspan, and not only, in particular, we decided decided to exploit, the higher aerodynamic efficiency of the boxing by improving the number of passengers. So we didn't focus on the increase of speed or, the, about a longer range, for example.
00:11:43:20 - 00:12:20:10
Vittorio Cipolla
But we wanted to because we set those requirements to have an improvement of about 50% if compared to, current Airbus A320 or Boeing 737. So although Bryan's idea is not that new. We and wake came up to a disruptive configuration since it is revolutionary and, as a result, in terms of fuel consumption, consumption per passenger, the reduction range is between 12 and 22%, depending on the how many, disruptive building blocks there you take into account.
00:12:20:10 - 00:12:25:11
Vittorio Cipolla
So basically there are several opportunities for exploiting this configuration.
00:12:25:13 - 00:12:46:22
Abigail Acton
And that sounds absolutely fascinating. I love the idea of the fact that you're taking something that's historic and it's now becoming disruptive. It's true that when we think of old box wings, we think of the past. But I've been seeing some of the images of your prototypes and and your design concepts, and they look very futuristic, actually. So industries have in the past been reluctant to embrace disruptive solutions.
00:12:46:22 - 00:13:00:23
Abigail Acton
Also, we'll have an impact on the uptake of hydrogen, I imagine. But what do you think is a key motivator for change when it comes to rethinking old ways of doing things and how is possible, trying to get the bigger players on board? How is industry being persuaded?
00:13:01:02 - 00:13:25:22
Vittorio Cipolla
Yeah, sure. So I don't think industries are of course reluctant since there are billions of investment needed for such a change. And, having the money anyway, the time to market for such kind of projects are very long. We're talking about 20 years, maybe something like that. Anyway, so the the key motivators for such a move probably is yet to come.
00:13:25:24 - 00:13:50:14
Vittorio Cipolla
But I think that the see, the is already there. And I'm talking about the effort, to protect the environment, which can leverage on industries. So not only about analytics but generally speaking. And this can happen, I think, in two ways. The first one, which is, more direct, I think is what they call we call, green taxis.
00:13:50:16 - 00:14:12:07
Vittorio Cipolla
So basically these taxis make, more competitive, those companies which invest in the green solutions and protect the environment. The second way is more indirect, I think, and is the customer's choice of giving their money to, companies, which put their effort in, in, protecting the environment.
00:14:12:09 - 00:14:16:13
Abigail Acton
It's certainly the case that consumer pressure really does speak now more than ever.
00:14:16:15 - 00:14:45:13
Vittorio Cipolla
Yeah. Yeah, sure. And I think that, once these, both these two phenomena will grow enough, they will be big enough so the industry will be somehow forced for such kind of change. So our solution is not the only one, of course, is one of the possible. But now we are studying also how to apply to other configuration, other categories and prototypes and other, validation are ongoing and that the industry is very interested on power itself.
00:14:45:15 - 00:15:03:01
Abigail Acton
Fantastic. That sounds excellent. And it's true that once they realize that, they really have to find a solution, then they cast around to see what's out there as concepts that could work. And there you will be, in a perfect position to show them an idea that that would work. Do does anybody have any questions here for Victorio?
00:15:03:03 - 00:15:14:03
Abigail Acton
Lauren, do you have any questions about noise? Actually, Vittoria I have, I'm thinking myself. What is the noise factor of your new design? Sorry, I'm asking you a question for you, so forgive me.
00:15:14:05 - 00:15:16:23
Vittorio Cipolla
Okay, I can answer if, Or.
00:15:16:23 - 00:15:18:19
Abigail Acton
Yeah, please do. Please do answer.
00:15:18:21 - 00:15:42:08
Vittorio Cipolla
Okay. So yeah, we we we also consider the environmental impact also on not only on the emission side, but also on the noise side. And, we came up to, good encouraging results. But since we didn't consider any new propulsion systems, what the result we obtained is something that used to be compared to the increase of passengers.
00:15:42:13 - 00:16:09:04
Vittorio Cipolla
We can we can, produce. So basically, we can have this air of the same size with the similar level of noise, but the passenger capacity will be highly increased. So in a scenario in which the air transport is growing, this is in a way, from our perspective, of course, a good solution to, limit the growth or some of the noise associated to the traffic growth.
00:16:09:06 - 00:16:34:21
Laurent Leylekian
Thank you. Vittorio, maybe just one remark and then a question. The reluctance to to yes, to, to operate such, craft is not only from industry but also probably from airlines, because there are some take on a cycle of factors that would prevent maybe some customers to embark on these new kinds of aircraft. That's also a factor to be taken into account, certainly, as you mentioned, noise.
00:16:34:21 - 00:16:54:00
Laurent Leylekian
And of course, I will raise the point. I would like to know if you also embarked on the kind of comparison with other futuristic, design like the so-called blended wing bodies, craft not only about noise, but maybe also about the lift to drag ratio or these kind of of sectors. Suddenly you did.
00:16:54:02 - 00:17:24:01
Vittorio Cipolla
Okay, so, on the airline side, we involved some, airline, company managers in the advisory board of the, of the project. So we try to anticipate some of these kind of issues and these one and we did the same. We also with the industry experts and, also for the management companies, so we put together all the constraints and possible, issues arising, from the introduction of this innovative concept.
00:17:24:03 - 00:17:52:10
Vittorio Cipolla
And so we taken all of these aspects into count. Concerning the second question about the comparison, we, acted in a more traditional way, comparing the new solution with the state of the art. So, in Parsifal, we achieved the all, results, which, have a value in terms of comparison with the, what we should expect in the future if we assume an evolution of, the conventional configuration.
00:17:52:10 - 00:18:10:11
Vittorio Cipolla
This is the approach that we develop. It will be interesting also to perform, of course, comparison with other alternatives, but probably distribute that. The final answer is that we need both. I think there are they are they are very specific for, the missions we take into account. And they are very different.
00:18:10:16 - 00:18:35:19
Abigail Acton
It's interesting that you say we need both. It's what, Andrew was saying earlier about the the necessity for a range of options for fuel as well. In other words, there isn't just one silver bullet. It's it's interesting to apply as many new concepts as possible to try and resolve these issues. Thank you very much. Vittoria. Laurel, if I could turn to you, so far we've been talking about engineering solutions to emissions and engineering solutions to fuel efficiency and so on.
00:18:35:23 - 00:18:48:06
Abigail Acton
I know the Anima project has been considering another form of pollution, namely noise pollution. But you've been thinking about the problem from the perspective of local residents. Why not leave the issue of noise annoyance to the engineers?
00:18:48:08 - 00:19:20:12
Laurent Leylekian
Well, because the solution is not only up to the engineers. So far and for years, the, the issue has been taken and dealt with by engineers, with some successes with regard to the objective, put forward by the okay and by the European Commission. But, we are not saturating and, there are some legal issue and also some I mean, some regulatory issues and also some issue related to the society that makes the problem more, more holistic.
00:19:20:14 - 00:19:40:02
Laurent Leylekian
And, to solve this problem, we need also to take into account the attitude of neighboring, residents toward aviation and toward aircraft. And so, we make more than half of the, of the bus with engineers. And now we are in need of the other stakeholders to make the other part of the panel.
00:19:40:02 - 00:19:46:20
Abigail Acton
And how are you establishing actually what their feelings are? What what is the work of the project with regards to getting people's opinions?
00:19:46:22 - 00:20:14:14
Laurent Leylekian
Well, in the project we made the first, review, a very comprehensive review on how airport, taking into account the regulation, which is very complex, very, with multiple stack and both technical level and also how they try to implement some, some, mitigation measures, how they try to engage with their neighbors when it failed and when it has some success.
00:20:14:16 - 00:20:45:13
Laurent Leylekian
And, and then, we also tried to understand what means annoyance, because annoyance is a kind of, very touchy road, and behind this word there is a very wide set of concepts from just being annoyed when you're reading a book club to, difficulty to learning for children or up to even, some very physical effects such as, strokes or, or, or, yes, strokes, for instance.
00:20:45:15 - 00:21:21:16
Laurent Leylekian
And so we, we put the emphasis on what we call not acoustical factors because we, we know and we knew before, by the way, that noise correlates only to, let's say, the third to annoyance. Oh, sorry. Did the to say the the and yes, the the objective noise correlates only to a third to to annoyance. Two thirds been explained by either personal personal sensitivity or by some non acoustical factor, which are something much more in connection with social behaviors.
00:21:21:18 - 00:21:33:12
Abigail Acton
Okay. It's interesting because some people might find the volume more problematic. Other people might find, irregularity, a lack of predictability, a problem. Is that the sort of thing your project was uncovering?
00:21:33:17 - 00:22:06:22
Laurent Leylekian
Exactly. Your tackling about metrics, how to measure noise, of course. You know, for a specific purpose, there is some very clear, engineer based, way of measuring noise. And also for a regulatory purpose, there are some other average, noise maps, but, when you are living here and then, and then you are not sensitive to an average of where you are sensitive and, and incentives review for instance, during night know awakened by a given, given noise or not look at the range value.
00:22:06:24 - 00:22:33:00
Laurent Leylekian
So it makes no sense. And indeed we, to some extent discover, that, or at least we discover that we, we, we showed that, to, to step forward, we need, to find it, not a solution, because there is no solution but the consensus. And to reach this consensus, we have first to establish a dialog between all the stakeholders.
00:22:33:02 - 00:22:59:01
Laurent Leylekian
Therefore, after it is the economic, stakeholders also because, but also economy is also job is also business. And also the resident. And the dialog must be fair so comprehensible for each of of the people without organizing. And also, the prerequisite for this dialog is that the, the promoter of the dialog should be ready to endorse the conclusion.
00:22:59:01 - 00:23:01:03
Laurent Leylekian
And this is, not always the case.
00:23:01:07 - 00:23:17:23
Abigail Acton
No, I can imagine I can see that, that people will open the door to have these kind of discussions and then maybe turn away from the results of those discussions themselves. Yes, yes. Do any of I, anyone have any questions for for Laurel? Yes. Vittorio.
00:23:18:00 - 00:23:42:16
Vittorio Cipolla
Yes, if I can. So, yeah, a question which is, somehow related to my previous answer. So and run, in your opinion, assuming that the transport, we go in in the future. So on the community noise side, would it be better to have, more flights per day, with more silent aircraft? So maybe a bigger airport with more flights?
00:23:42:18 - 00:24:04:11
Vittorio Cipolla
Or on the other side, the more we look, the better to have an airport as big as the one we have today. But with the higher capacity aircraft, like, for example, the Pacific cases, this one, that might be not beaten, may not be more silent. Yeah, but in general, you can have, less flights per day, for example.
00:24:04:11 - 00:24:11:03
Vittorio Cipolla
So on the metric side, which would be better, if possible, to have a quick, easy answer.
00:24:11:05 - 00:24:45:16
Laurent Leylekian
That's a, that's a very, very topical and very interesting question. Depends. Because for the same, very same pattern of traffics, in some area people are complaining and some in some other people are not complaining. And it depends on the local sensitivities. And it also depends on what you are talking about. If you are talking about night noise, probably people will would like to prefer something which is, high background noise, you know, high level of background noise without any peaks because you are awakened by peaks.
00:24:45:18 - 00:25:29:08
Laurent Leylekian
But if you are talking about daytime, noise, then, peaks are less problematic than the average background noise. So really, the strategies to mitigate noise should be, in the local place should be defined by all the stakeholders, together. And, and for instance, I know that in Australia, they decided to, to make the take off in a given direction, I mean, changing direction to, in order to, you know, to, to to turn around the airport so that each community will be affected, during the, during the whole year, but not always this the same community affected, every time.
00:25:29:10 - 00:25:44:15
Laurent Leylekian
So but this is one strategy and some other prefer to just to focus the traffic always in one direction to avoid to, to to to, to spread over the whole area. So, so I have no definitive answer. I'm sorry to the local residents.
00:25:44:15 - 00:26:05:12
Abigail Acton
And again, we seem to come back to the idea of the fact that there has to be various ways of tackling the same issue. We found it with the fuel sources, we found it with the with the designs of the airplanes to make them more efficient. And now also with regards to the notion of noise nuisance, it seems that really the the answer lies in remaining flexible and thinking out of the box.
00:26:05:16 - 00:26:25:13
Abigail Acton
Apparently. I have one more question that I'd like to ask each of you in turn. Just a short, simple answer. And I'd like to start again with you, Andrew, if I may. What do you feel in your field will be or should be the key innovation embraced by the aviation industry over the next decade? Tricky question.
00:26:25:15 - 00:26:43:00
Dr Andrew Rolt
Well, I'm going to say that, we will be starting to move away from using kerosene as, as the dominant aviation fuel. And, in the short term, we will have sustainable aviation fuels and then a transition to hydrogen, beyond the next decade.
00:26:43:02 - 00:26:52:17
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Andres, thank you very much. And no doubt enable H2 will be a part of the reason for why that becomes feasible. If I may ask you, Vittorio, what do you think will be the innovation?
00:26:52:23 - 00:27:17:01
Vittorio Cipolla
I think that, I could mention a lot of technology enablers that are worth, to be, to be started. But I think that the, most of the innovation should be on the side of, the process of collaboration between the industry or research center, because there are a lot of enthusiasts among, the industry experts that maybe are not very well encouraged to push on the, on the innovation side.
00:27:17:01 - 00:27:34:01
Vittorio Cipolla
So I think that the industry starts to, to create a kind of innovation department where, they should be seen as, and as far as the career goal for people from industry, I think that, innovation will be boosted tremendously.
00:27:34:03 - 00:27:41:19
Abigail Acton
Thank you. Vittoria. Excellent. And also in in your field, what do you think should or will be the key innovation in the next ten years?
00:27:41:21 - 00:28:06:23
Laurent Leylekian
Well, I suppose that, the keyword should be Intel mobility, because at the time being, we are big hubs which are concentrating all the problems noise pollution, congestion and so, probably, we would have less traffic, short distance and also a traffic which would be more distributed, from directly from small airport to small boat rather than concentrated to, to big.
00:28:07:00 - 00:28:10:03
Abigail Acton
Yeah, that's an interesting idea. And it's more accessible as well.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:17:08
Laurent Leylekian
Yeah. More direct. Maybe, more respectful of it or with regard to noise and pollution.
00:28:17:13 - 00:28:38:23
Abigail Acton
Well, thank you very much. That was very interesting. And I found particularly fascinating the notion that there needs to be a variety of solutions to each of the problems or, or, considerations that you have all been focusing on so successfully in your projects. Thank you very much for your input. It's given me something to think about, and I'm sure also for our audience.
00:28:39:00 - 00:28:41:14
Laurent Leylekian
Thank you. Thank you. And your student.
00:28:41:16 - 00:28:43:02
Dr Andrew Rolt
Yes. Thank you. I make it up.
00:28:43:06 - 00:28:45:07
Vittorio Cipolla
Thanks a lot. Thank you for your invitation.
00:28:45:07 - 00:29:08:15
Abigail Acton
You're very welcome. Find out what other projects funded by the EU are working on to ensure the aviation sector remains robust. By taking a look at issue 99 of the research EU magazine, The Future of Aviation the only way is up. Available on the Cordis website cordis.europa.eu. The website offers you the chance to see what's being achieved by EU science funding.
00:29:08:19 - 00:29:32:20
Abigail Acton
From short daily news articles through to more in-depth analysis provided by the magazine and results packs. These bring together projects that are researching in the same domain to show the scope of work being done. If you're more interested in interviews, the results and brief section explores research through the eyes of the researchers themselves. And if you think you have a project that could benefit from EU support, the site will show you what others are doing in your field.
00:29:33:01 - 00:29:53:08
Abigail Acton
So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. Our next episode will consider the new synergies of shopping, e-commerce or bricks and mortar. Does the high street have a future? Or has the Covid pandemic simply accelerated an inevitable shift to online shopping? Join me to hear what three leading researchers in the field can reveal.
00:29:53:10 - 00:30:06:14
Abigail Acton
We're always happy to hear from you, so drop us a line editorial@cordis.europa.eu. Until next time.
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery. Hello and welcome to this episode of the CORDIScovery podcast with me, Abigail Acton. Economies will struggle to get back on their feet in a post-Covid pandemic world, and the aviation sector will undoubtedly have a key role to play. But how do we tackle the great dichotomy? Flights are crucial to GDP, but flying damages the environment.
00:00:38:00 - 00:00:58:14
Abigail Acton
Can we take to the skies while still meeting the objectives of the Paris Agreement? On climate Change, or the EU's goal to be carbon neutral by 2050? And do those living near airports want us to go back to business as normal? Today's three guests, whose work was supported by the EU's horizon 2020 program, may just have some answers.
00:00:58:16 - 00:01:30:24
Abigail Acton
Making hydrogen fueled flights a reality. Redesigning aircraft wings to reduce drag and increase fuel efficiency, and fully understanding local residents perceptions of noise when designing airports or building new runways, or simply wanting them to have easier, more comfortable lives in the vicinity of airports. welcome to a futuristic episode of CORDIScovery with Doctor Andrew Rolt, senior research fellow at Cranfield University, who is researching technologies for liquid hydrogen fueled commercial aviation.
00:01:31:04 - 00:01:41:15
Abigail Acton
Andrew is involved in the ENABLEH2 project. His areas include technology assessment, hydrogen combustion and road mapping. A transition to hydrogen. Welcome, Andrew.
00:01:41:17 - 00:01:42:09
Dr Andrew Rolt
Hello, everybody.
00:01:42:15 - 00:02:02:16
Abigail Acton
Doctor Vittorio Cipolla, assistant professor at the Department of Civil and Industrial Engineering of the University of Pisa, is focused on aircraft design with an emphasis on disruptive architectures. Vittoria was the coordinator of the PARSIFAL project, which designed and analyzed the potential impact of a new box wing design on aviation. Welcome, Vitorio.
00:02:02:22 - 00:02:04:00
Vittorio Cipolla
Hello Abigail and everyone.
00:02:04:02 - 00:02:26:13
Abigail Acton
Doctor Laurent Leylekian, European affairs officer at ONERA the French Aerospace Lab, Lahore is an expert in aviation noise reduction technologies and strategies and the coordinator of the Anima project, which provides authorities and airports with suitable management and mitigation procedures to reduce the annoyance experienced by local residents relating to noise pollution. Hello, Laurent, thank you for joining us today.
00:02:26:13 - 00:02:28:09
Laurent Leylekian
Good afternoon. Hello everyone.
00:02:28:11 - 00:02:37:23
Abigail Acton
Andrew, if I could turn to you to start with, the first thing to address head on is the possible preconception that hydrogen fuel isn't safe. Can you explain why? In fact, it is.
00:02:38:00 - 00:03:06:02
Dr Andrew Rolt
Thanks. Yes, we get this question a lot. And addressing safety concerns is a major aspect of the enable H2 project. Even though hydrogen already has an excellent safety record where it is used today. For example, hydrogen is widely used as a feedstock in the chemical industry, and it is used to cool electrical generators and power stations. Now, the so-called green hydrogen made by the electrolysis of water using renewable energy is rapidly becoming affordable.
00:03:06:04 - 00:03:30:17
Dr Andrew Rolt
We see hydrogen being used as an energy carrier and replacing fossil fuels in all kinds of applications, from domestic heating to ground transport. These are all areas where we want to eliminate CO2 and why safety is vital. This is why Airbus believes in hydrogen fuel. Net zero airliners could be entering service in about 15 years time. And this should not only address global warming, but also improve the air quality.
00:03:30:20 - 00:03:47:08
Dr Andrew Rolt
And. Now, like any fuel, hydrogen will burn, but it does so quickly with relatively little radiation and no smoke. Well, I just like to note that the major airship disasters of the 1970s, it was actually the fuel or not, the hydrogen that sustain the fires.
00:03:47:10 - 00:04:10:12
Abigail Acton
That's very interesting because obviously when we think of those ghastly images, it's that we think of it as being the hydrogen that went up and not the fuel. Or so it's, it's an important point to note. So I understand what you're saying clearly that it is it is perfectly safe. And as you say, it has applications in in industries and, where safety is obviously of the essence.
00:04:10:14 - 00:04:20:19
Abigail Acton
So we can understand that that is the case. But then why should we be working so hard to make liquid hydrogen available alternative to fuel beyond the fact that it's safe? What are the benefits?
00:04:20:21 - 00:04:44:19
Dr Andrew Rolt
Well, some small research aircraft, using compressed hydrogen gas in fuel cells for electric propulsion. But gas tanks weigh more than ten times their content. And this limit, the aircraft range is 12,000km or so and still beats battery powered electric aircraft. But for longer ranges, aircraft will need to carry a lot more fuel, which is where liquid nitrogen comes in.
00:04:44:21 - 00:05:17:14
Dr Andrew Rolt
It's denser and it can be stored at low pressure much like two times. This makes flights of 5000km or more feasible, but the tanks must be well-insulated because liquid hydrogen bottles -252 degrees C not provide some challenges, but also opportunities. Because the cold hydrogen can be used for cooling functions on the engines. University is studying the best ways to improve aero energy efficiency, using heat exchangers that would also be warming up the hydrogen on its way to the combustion.
00:05:17:16 - 00:05:38:22
Dr Andrew Rolt
And at Cranfield, we're modeling and requesting a novel light from its combustor concept. Our aim is to demonstrate high combustion efficiency with very low NOx emissions. NOx and water vapor are the only direct emissions produced by hydrogen. But together with contrails, contrail induced travelers, they can still contribute something to global warming.
00:05:38:24 - 00:06:02:02
Abigail Acton
So I mean, contrails, as a contribution to to warming is obviously a major concern when when it comes to the aviation industry and if hydrogen is still producing the contrails, I understand the benefits that you've just identified and the weight and so on. But how can we mitigate the effect of the contrails? Are they a preferable in their nature somehow to traditional fuel contrails?
00:06:02:04 - 00:06:30:09
Dr Andrew Rolt
Well, yes, we believe the contrails from hydrogen fueled engines will be less opaque and so we'll have less warming effect. In other words, they won't stop the Earth's radiating away heat because unlike kerosene, which is our current aviation fuel, nitrogen won't produce the carbon and sulfur containing particles that act as nuclei. So the formation of contrails and cirrus clouds will narrow engines have very low oil consumption, you know, it will still generate some particles.
00:06:30:15 - 00:06:59:23
Dr Andrew Rolt
So more research is needed because there's still a lot of uncertainty about contrails and their effects on the asset. Those contrails only form under certain atmospheric conditions, and they can generally be avoided by flying different altitudes. Another possible approach might be to extract water from engine exhaust and flying at high altitude, right? The effects of contrails are very short term, but CO2, on the other hand, stays in the atmosphere for many decades, so its greenhouse effects are still seen to be a bigger concern.
00:07:00:00 - 00:07:26:08
Abigail Acton
Right, okay. With regards to the reduction in weight, obviously that that makes the the the planes more efficient. And I know Vittoria the efficiency of the flights, and, and the airplanes themselves is something that possivel has been very interested in. I know that you were considering, the impact of, the reduction of fuel consumption by your new design, which you estimate to be almost by one fourth, so I presume obviously, hydrogen must also be interesting for the part of our project.
00:07:26:10 - 00:08:03:09
Vittorio Cipolla
Yes, exactly. Thank you for this question, Abigail. It's actually our, next step. Now, we have studied, which are the improvement that can be provided by just changing the aircraft architecture without taking, new fuels or new propulsion systems into account. So, and we sure that the results that you have anticipated. So the next step is to take, alternatives like hydrogen fuel or a hybrid electric propulsion system for smaller, aircraft, for example, in accountancy, which will be the combined and the result.
00:08:03:11 - 00:08:10:22
Abigail Acton
And that being the case, would you have any questions that you would like to put to Andrew? Or also, if you have a question you would like to put to Andrew.
00:08:10:23 - 00:08:36:12
Laurent Leylekian
Yeah, maybe, a couple of questions, or at least one. It's a very, I to say teasing hypothesis, this hydrogen combustion. But I would like to know even the case if you make the assumption of a massive conversion of air traffic to hydrogen. Do you have or do we have any assumption or any basis on the under the ability to cope with the demand of hydrogen?
00:08:36:14 - 00:08:46:07
Laurent Leylekian
I mean, facilities to produce this, new fuel, is not here at the moment. And so I would like to know if if it's still, considered.
00:08:46:08 - 00:09:21:16
Dr Andrew Rolt
Yes, that's a good question. The introduction of hydrogen obviously won't happen overnight. We're not going to suddenly convert the engines to to run on hydrogen in the new aircraft, new engines. And, it takes 20 years or more to, to replace a fleet of aircraft. And, initially, obviously hydrogen will be not the only fuel. It's, it's being, used to reduce emissions because we also have, sustainable aviation fuels, biofuels and so on, which will, play a role.
00:09:21:18 - 00:09:46:02
Dr Andrew Rolt
So I think that we will see a development of the hydrogen economy, which will make hydrogen supplies, piping hydrogen to gas as a gas to airports, relatively straightforward. And then in the next phase, we will look to, introduce, hydrogen liquefaction plants, storage facilities for liquid hydrogen. So it will be a build up of, over 30 years.
00:09:46:02 - 00:10:06:21
Abigail Acton
And so thanks, Andrew. Thank you very much. That was a good question. Victoria, if I could turn to you, since we're talking about greener fuels or ways to reduce emissions and so on, obviously energy efficiency is is a key point to this. Can you tell us more about this interesting design that you came up with with regards to a box wing concept?
00:10:07:02 - 00:10:42:17
Vittorio Cipolla
Yes, sure. So in parts of our project, we studied the application of the box green configuration to short to medium range aircraft. So this configuration comes from an idea of 100 years ago, by Ludvig Grant, which is one of the father of our the Nomics. And, it came up to this concept called, best wing system, meaning that this was the system capable to maximize the span efficiency, which is one of the most important component of aerodynamic efficiency, without increasing the wingspan.
00:10:42:19 - 00:11:14:14
Vittorio Cipolla
So if we think to today, requirements of reducing fuel consumption and reducing the environmental impact, one of the possible approaches to improve their dynamics, by acting on the aircraft configuration, traditionally, this is done by increasing the wingspan of aircraft, so creating bigger aircraft, basically. But this is, in conflict with, the airport constraints, increases the level of separation.
00:11:14:16 - 00:11:43:20
Vittorio Cipolla
So the solution we propose in the of our project is to adopt the box wing technology. To increase the aircraft aerodynamics without these increase in the wingspan, and not only, in particular, we decided decided to exploit, the higher aerodynamic efficiency of the boxing by improving the number of passengers. So we didn't focus on the increase of speed or, the, about a longer range, for example.
00:11:43:20 - 00:12:20:10
Vittorio Cipolla
But we wanted to because we set those requirements to have an improvement of about 50% if compared to, current Airbus A320 or Boeing 737. So although Bryan's idea is not that new. We and wake came up to a disruptive configuration since it is revolutionary and, as a result, in terms of fuel consumption, consumption per passenger, the reduction range is between 12 and 22%, depending on the how many, disruptive building blocks there you take into account.
00:12:20:10 - 00:12:25:11
Vittorio Cipolla
So basically there are several opportunities for exploiting this configuration.
00:12:25:13 - 00:12:46:22
Abigail Acton
And that sounds absolutely fascinating. I love the idea of the fact that you're taking something that's historic and it's now becoming disruptive. It's true that when we think of old box wings, we think of the past. But I've been seeing some of the images of your prototypes and and your design concepts, and they look very futuristic, actually. So industries have in the past been reluctant to embrace disruptive solutions.
00:12:46:22 - 00:13:00:23
Abigail Acton
Also, we'll have an impact on the uptake of hydrogen, I imagine. But what do you think is a key motivator for change when it comes to rethinking old ways of doing things and how is possible, trying to get the bigger players on board? How is industry being persuaded?
00:13:01:02 - 00:13:25:22
Vittorio Cipolla
Yeah, sure. So I don't think industries are of course reluctant since there are billions of investment needed for such a change. And, having the money anyway, the time to market for such kind of projects are very long. We're talking about 20 years, maybe something like that. Anyway, so the the key motivators for such a move probably is yet to come.
00:13:25:24 - 00:13:50:14
Vittorio Cipolla
But I think that the see, the is already there. And I'm talking about the effort, to protect the environment, which can leverage on industries. So not only about analytics but generally speaking. And this can happen, I think, in two ways. The first one, which is, more direct, I think is what they call we call, green taxis.
00:13:50:16 - 00:14:12:07
Vittorio Cipolla
So basically these taxis make, more competitive, those companies which invest in the green solutions and protect the environment. The second way is more indirect, I think, and is the customer's choice of giving their money to, companies, which put their effort in, in, protecting the environment.
00:14:12:09 - 00:14:16:13
Abigail Acton
It's certainly the case that consumer pressure really does speak now more than ever.
00:14:16:15 - 00:14:45:13
Vittorio Cipolla
Yeah. Yeah, sure. And I think that, once these, both these two phenomena will grow enough, they will be big enough so the industry will be somehow forced for such kind of change. So our solution is not the only one, of course, is one of the possible. But now we are studying also how to apply to other configuration, other categories and prototypes and other, validation are ongoing and that the industry is very interested on power itself.
00:14:45:15 - 00:15:03:01
Abigail Acton
Fantastic. That sounds excellent. And it's true that once they realize that, they really have to find a solution, then they cast around to see what's out there as concepts that could work. And there you will be, in a perfect position to show them an idea that that would work. Do does anybody have any questions here for Victorio?
00:15:03:03 - 00:15:14:03
Abigail Acton
Lauren, do you have any questions about noise? Actually, Vittoria I have, I'm thinking myself. What is the noise factor of your new design? Sorry, I'm asking you a question for you, so forgive me.
00:15:14:05 - 00:15:16:23
Vittorio Cipolla
Okay, I can answer if, Or.
00:15:16:23 - 00:15:18:19
Abigail Acton
Yeah, please do. Please do answer.
00:15:18:21 - 00:15:42:08
Vittorio Cipolla
Okay. So yeah, we we we also consider the environmental impact also on not only on the emission side, but also on the noise side. And, we came up to, good encouraging results. But since we didn't consider any new propulsion systems, what the result we obtained is something that used to be compared to the increase of passengers.
00:15:42:13 - 00:16:09:04
Vittorio Cipolla
We can we can, produce. So basically, we can have this air of the same size with the similar level of noise, but the passenger capacity will be highly increased. So in a scenario in which the air transport is growing, this is in a way, from our perspective, of course, a good solution to, limit the growth or some of the noise associated to the traffic growth.
00:16:09:06 - 00:16:34:21
Laurent Leylekian
Thank you. Vittorio, maybe just one remark and then a question. The reluctance to to yes, to, to operate such, craft is not only from industry but also probably from airlines, because there are some take on a cycle of factors that would prevent maybe some customers to embark on these new kinds of aircraft. That's also a factor to be taken into account, certainly, as you mentioned, noise.
00:16:34:21 - 00:16:54:00
Laurent Leylekian
And of course, I will raise the point. I would like to know if you also embarked on the kind of comparison with other futuristic, design like the so-called blended wing bodies, craft not only about noise, but maybe also about the lift to drag ratio or these kind of of sectors. Suddenly you did.
00:16:54:02 - 00:17:24:01
Vittorio Cipolla
Okay, so, on the airline side, we involved some, airline, company managers in the advisory board of the, of the project. So we try to anticipate some of these kind of issues and these one and we did the same. We also with the industry experts and, also for the management companies, so we put together all the constraints and possible, issues arising, from the introduction of this innovative concept.
00:17:24:03 - 00:17:52:10
Vittorio Cipolla
And so we taken all of these aspects into count. Concerning the second question about the comparison, we, acted in a more traditional way, comparing the new solution with the state of the art. So, in Parsifal, we achieved the all, results, which, have a value in terms of comparison with the, what we should expect in the future if we assume an evolution of, the conventional configuration.
00:17:52:10 - 00:18:10:11
Vittorio Cipolla
This is the approach that we develop. It will be interesting also to perform, of course, comparison with other alternatives, but probably distribute that. The final answer is that we need both. I think there are they are they are very specific for, the missions we take into account. And they are very different.
00:18:10:16 - 00:18:35:19
Abigail Acton
It's interesting that you say we need both. It's what, Andrew was saying earlier about the the necessity for a range of options for fuel as well. In other words, there isn't just one silver bullet. It's it's interesting to apply as many new concepts as possible to try and resolve these issues. Thank you very much. Vittoria. Laurel, if I could turn to you, so far we've been talking about engineering solutions to emissions and engineering solutions to fuel efficiency and so on.
00:18:35:23 - 00:18:48:06
Abigail Acton
I know the Anima project has been considering another form of pollution, namely noise pollution. But you've been thinking about the problem from the perspective of local residents. Why not leave the issue of noise annoyance to the engineers?
00:18:48:08 - 00:19:20:12
Laurent Leylekian
Well, because the solution is not only up to the engineers. So far and for years, the, the issue has been taken and dealt with by engineers, with some successes with regard to the objective, put forward by the okay and by the European Commission. But, we are not saturating and, there are some legal issue and also some I mean, some regulatory issues and also some issue related to the society that makes the problem more, more holistic.
00:19:20:14 - 00:19:40:02
Laurent Leylekian
And, to solve this problem, we need also to take into account the attitude of neighboring, residents toward aviation and toward aircraft. And so, we make more than half of the, of the bus with engineers. And now we are in need of the other stakeholders to make the other part of the panel.
00:19:40:02 - 00:19:46:20
Abigail Acton
And how are you establishing actually what their feelings are? What what is the work of the project with regards to getting people's opinions?
00:19:46:22 - 00:20:14:14
Laurent Leylekian
Well, in the project we made the first, review, a very comprehensive review on how airport, taking into account the regulation, which is very complex, very, with multiple stack and both technical level and also how they try to implement some, some, mitigation measures, how they try to engage with their neighbors when it failed and when it has some success.
00:20:14:16 - 00:20:45:13
Laurent Leylekian
And, and then, we also tried to understand what means annoyance, because annoyance is a kind of, very touchy road, and behind this word there is a very wide set of concepts from just being annoyed when you're reading a book club to, difficulty to learning for children or up to even, some very physical effects such as, strokes or, or, or, yes, strokes, for instance.
00:20:45:15 - 00:21:21:16
Laurent Leylekian
And so we, we put the emphasis on what we call not acoustical factors because we, we know and we knew before, by the way, that noise correlates only to, let's say, the third to annoyance. Oh, sorry. Did the to say the the and yes, the the objective noise correlates only to a third to to annoyance. Two thirds been explained by either personal personal sensitivity or by some non acoustical factor, which are something much more in connection with social behaviors.
00:21:21:18 - 00:21:33:12
Abigail Acton
Okay. It's interesting because some people might find the volume more problematic. Other people might find, irregularity, a lack of predictability, a problem. Is that the sort of thing your project was uncovering?
00:21:33:17 - 00:22:06:22
Laurent Leylekian
Exactly. Your tackling about metrics, how to measure noise, of course. You know, for a specific purpose, there is some very clear, engineer based, way of measuring noise. And also for a regulatory purpose, there are some other average, noise maps, but, when you are living here and then, and then you are not sensitive to an average of where you are sensitive and, and incentives review for instance, during night know awakened by a given, given noise or not look at the range value.
00:22:06:24 - 00:22:33:00
Laurent Leylekian
So it makes no sense. And indeed we, to some extent discover, that, or at least we discover that we, we, we showed that, to, to step forward, we need, to find it, not a solution, because there is no solution but the consensus. And to reach this consensus, we have first to establish a dialog between all the stakeholders.
00:22:33:02 - 00:22:59:01
Laurent Leylekian
Therefore, after it is the economic, stakeholders also because, but also economy is also job is also business. And also the resident. And the dialog must be fair so comprehensible for each of of the people without organizing. And also, the prerequisite for this dialog is that the, the promoter of the dialog should be ready to endorse the conclusion.
00:22:59:01 - 00:23:01:03
Laurent Leylekian
And this is, not always the case.
00:23:01:07 - 00:23:17:23
Abigail Acton
No, I can imagine I can see that, that people will open the door to have these kind of discussions and then maybe turn away from the results of those discussions themselves. Yes, yes. Do any of I, anyone have any questions for for Laurel? Yes. Vittorio.
00:23:18:00 - 00:23:42:16
Vittorio Cipolla
Yes, if I can. So, yeah, a question which is, somehow related to my previous answer. So and run, in your opinion, assuming that the transport, we go in in the future. So on the community noise side, would it be better to have, more flights per day, with more silent aircraft? So maybe a bigger airport with more flights?
00:23:42:18 - 00:24:04:11
Vittorio Cipolla
Or on the other side, the more we look, the better to have an airport as big as the one we have today. But with the higher capacity aircraft, like, for example, the Pacific cases, this one, that might be not beaten, may not be more silent. Yeah, but in general, you can have, less flights per day, for example.
00:24:04:11 - 00:24:11:03
Vittorio Cipolla
So on the metric side, which would be better, if possible, to have a quick, easy answer.
00:24:11:05 - 00:24:45:16
Laurent Leylekian
That's a, that's a very, very topical and very interesting question. Depends. Because for the same, very same pattern of traffics, in some area people are complaining and some in some other people are not complaining. And it depends on the local sensitivities. And it also depends on what you are talking about. If you are talking about night noise, probably people will would like to prefer something which is, high background noise, you know, high level of background noise without any peaks because you are awakened by peaks.
00:24:45:18 - 00:25:29:08
Laurent Leylekian
But if you are talking about daytime, noise, then, peaks are less problematic than the average background noise. So really, the strategies to mitigate noise should be, in the local place should be defined by all the stakeholders, together. And, and for instance, I know that in Australia, they decided to, to make the take off in a given direction, I mean, changing direction to, in order to, you know, to, to to turn around the airport so that each community will be affected, during the, during the whole year, but not always this the same community affected, every time.
00:25:29:10 - 00:25:44:15
Laurent Leylekian
So but this is one strategy and some other prefer to just to focus the traffic always in one direction to avoid to, to to to, to spread over the whole area. So, so I have no definitive answer. I'm sorry to the local residents.
00:25:44:15 - 00:26:05:12
Abigail Acton
And again, we seem to come back to the idea of the fact that there has to be various ways of tackling the same issue. We found it with the fuel sources, we found it with the with the designs of the airplanes to make them more efficient. And now also with regards to the notion of noise nuisance, it seems that really the the answer lies in remaining flexible and thinking out of the box.
00:26:05:16 - 00:26:25:13
Abigail Acton
Apparently. I have one more question that I'd like to ask each of you in turn. Just a short, simple answer. And I'd like to start again with you, Andrew, if I may. What do you feel in your field will be or should be the key innovation embraced by the aviation industry over the next decade? Tricky question.
00:26:25:15 - 00:26:43:00
Dr Andrew Rolt
Well, I'm going to say that, we will be starting to move away from using kerosene as, as the dominant aviation fuel. And, in the short term, we will have sustainable aviation fuels and then a transition to hydrogen, beyond the next decade.
00:26:43:02 - 00:26:52:17
Abigail Acton
Excellent. Andres, thank you very much. And no doubt enable H2 will be a part of the reason for why that becomes feasible. If I may ask you, Vittorio, what do you think will be the innovation?
00:26:52:23 - 00:27:17:01
Vittorio Cipolla
I think that, I could mention a lot of technology enablers that are worth, to be, to be started. But I think that the, most of the innovation should be on the side of, the process of collaboration between the industry or research center, because there are a lot of enthusiasts among, the industry experts that maybe are not very well encouraged to push on the, on the innovation side.
00:27:17:01 - 00:27:34:01
Vittorio Cipolla
So I think that the industry starts to, to create a kind of innovation department where, they should be seen as, and as far as the career goal for people from industry, I think that, innovation will be boosted tremendously.
00:27:34:03 - 00:27:41:19
Abigail Acton
Thank you. Vittoria. Excellent. And also in in your field, what do you think should or will be the key innovation in the next ten years?
00:27:41:21 - 00:28:06:23
Laurent Leylekian
Well, I suppose that, the keyword should be Intel mobility, because at the time being, we are big hubs which are concentrating all the problems noise pollution, congestion and so, probably, we would have less traffic, short distance and also a traffic which would be more distributed, from directly from small airport to small boat rather than concentrated to, to big.
00:28:07:00 - 00:28:10:03
Abigail Acton
Yeah, that's an interesting idea. And it's more accessible as well.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:17:08
Laurent Leylekian
Yeah. More direct. Maybe, more respectful of it or with regard to noise and pollution.
00:28:17:13 - 00:28:38:23
Abigail Acton
Well, thank you very much. That was very interesting. And I found particularly fascinating the notion that there needs to be a variety of solutions to each of the problems or, or, considerations that you have all been focusing on so successfully in your projects. Thank you very much for your input. It's given me something to think about, and I'm sure also for our audience.
00:28:39:00 - 00:28:41:14
Laurent Leylekian
Thank you. Thank you. And your student.
00:28:41:16 - 00:28:43:02
Dr Andrew Rolt
Yes. Thank you. I make it up.
00:28:43:06 - 00:28:45:07
Vittorio Cipolla
Thanks a lot. Thank you for your invitation.
00:28:45:07 - 00:29:08:15
Abigail Acton
You're very welcome. Find out what other projects funded by the EU are working on to ensure the aviation sector remains robust. By taking a look at issue 99 of the research EU magazine, The Future of Aviation the only way is up. Available on the Cordis website cordis.europa.eu. The website offers you the chance to see what's being achieved by EU science funding.
00:29:08:19 - 00:29:32:20
Abigail Acton
From short daily news articles through to more in-depth analysis provided by the magazine and results packs. These bring together projects that are researching in the same domain to show the scope of work being done. If you're more interested in interviews, the results and brief section explores research through the eyes of the researchers themselves. And if you think you have a project that could benefit from EU support, the site will show you what others are doing in your field.
00:29:33:01 - 00:29:53:08
Abigail Acton
So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. Our next episode will consider the new synergies of shopping, e-commerce or bricks and mortar. Does the high street have a future? Or has the Covid pandemic simply accelerated an inevitable shift to online shopping? Join me to hear what three leading researchers in the field can reveal.
00:29:53:10 - 00:30:06:14
Abigail Acton
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Economies around the world face the daunting task of getting back on their feet in a post-COVID pandemic world, and the aviation sector will undoubtedly have a key role to play. But how do we tackle the great dichotomy: flights are crucial to GDP but flying also damages the environment. Can we take to the skies while still meeting the objectives of the Paris Agreement on Climate Change, or individual goals such as the EU’s target to be carbon neutral by 2050? And do those living near airports want us to go back to business as normal after enjoying a year of peace and quiet, due to the huge drop in flights caused by the pandemic? In this episode of CORDIScovery, join our host, Abigail Acton as she discusses these issues and more with our three distinguished guests: Dr Vittorio Cipolla, based at the University of Pisa and coordinator of the PARSIFAL project, who is hoping to bring a radically redesigned wing to market – will companies embrace disruptive tech? Then Laurent Leylekian, European Affairs Officer at the French aerospace lab, ONERA, and coordinator of the ANIMA project, which analysed noise pollution from the perspective of local residents. And finally, Dr Andrew Rolt, senior research fellow at Cranfield University (UK) and coordinator of the ENABLEH2, who is researching technologies for liquid hydrogen fuelled commercial aviation.
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Keywords
CORDIScovery, CORDIS, podcast, aviation, flying